Cost & list of parts to rebuild a 3.0L
 

Here is a parts list for a full rebuild on a 3.0 engine.

This could also be in the Engine Rebuilding Forum, however most people look to the Technical Forum first for advice ahead of time, and go to the Engine Rebuilding Forum "while they are in there"

Recent posts highlighted the lack of knowledge about the actual detailed costs of what it takes to rebuild a Porsche flat six. Here is the real deal, without labor.
(>$20K to have a professional do it all --> not surprising)

Major tasks:
Replace #2 Cylinder and #2 Cylinder Head <-- reason for the rebuild
CCR weld repaired the Crankshaft <-- big surprise
Re-plated Cylinders and new Pistons <-- disappointing added cost
New Camshafts <-- did this for the fun of it
New rocker shafts <-- another surprise
Rebuilt heads with new guides, valves and exhaust studs <-- Required
Reconditioned Rods and premium bolts and GT3 rod bearing <-- Insurance
Zero Timed cam drive system <-- failed tensioner & Insurance

Another way to look at it:
Zero timing the entire bottom end: ~$4,864
Top End: ~$5,213
New Cams: ~$1,086
Tools and stuff: ~$923

Some things you might not do. Some things will be a surprise. I chose to Zero-time the engine.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1548113508.jpg

Awesome man! Thank you!

Thank you.

If all new P&C's add another $3k?

Bet this thread does not get the airplay of the other one because it's factual and undermines speculation.

Great job posting that. John

Yes!!

Mahle P&C set is $3K additional cost over the re-plate and JE pistons.

So $15k in parts.

This thread will be linked so many times across the years.

Thank you.

Would a 3.2 cost about the same?

Have not addressed all the CIS issues that costs more $$$. Only if CIS is in place.

Having my ‘78 80k mile 3.0 rebuilt as we speak. Started out as a broken head stud(s) then progressed into a top end. Will be glad when it’s over.

+1 Many, many, many hundreds even if in good shape. E.g., flow matched injectors for the serious.

Distributor refresh.

Engine tin and engine seals.

Send fan and shroud to Shaun for a spiff-up. Let's get a beefy alternator.

Raceware/ARP head studs and hardware/case through bolts and hardware

Clutch pack/main seal. TO bearing fork.

Mild 3.0 only needs steel head studs to replace the divlar ones. Raceware/arp is overkill for a non-turbo non-race motor.

And I reused the through case bolts. Those are pricey.

Previous year was clutch job and rebuilt carburetors.

I think if you wanted to build a really strong V8, the costs would be very high too.

Yes, very similar. The only “savings” is you don’t have the $40-50/ea c-seals on top of the cylinder.

Absolutely. Wish I knew about the steel studs in 97 when I did top end. Lots of data came from Don at EBS. I bought Raceware but the cost was so less prohibitive then. Plus, I had a good job. :)

Through bolts are not required. The seals are a good add and you can do that on a top end only job.

However, for a comprehensive list of how much one can get carried away, through bolts are at least a consideration.

Don has seen and done it all ,great guy/source for engine rebuilds.
I would spring for Stomski Cam timing gauge/pick up and sell it after the event.(or keep it for the next one. Dead nuts on ,repeatable results.

important points:

this list is mostly for part bought at pelican parts and some parts were made by oem suppliers and some had to be Porsche specific.

Shipping and taxes not included.

Cost of oil (10 quarts at a shot) also not included. That adds up!!

If you ask a shop to buy these parts for you, they will add a charge to do the work. Nothing is free, people get paid to do work.

Shops who stand behind their work will also insist on fixing things you don’t think you need. Don’t argue with them. They have the liability of messing up and they don’t need some small part screwing up their reputation.

I took the same approach: fix stuff that could cause you to avoid issues

Hence the GT3 rod bearings. Very expensive but sourced through Porsche because the glyco bearings had a bad rap, which could cause a rod failure. Money well spent on peace of mind.

I also bought new head stud nuts and washers. Also expensive. Controls heads leakage. Rusty parts should not be used for an assembly which is probably the most common problem in aircoooled engines.

That is how I approached the rebuild.

One lesson learned:

If I really wanted to avoid the three subsequent top ends to fix the ring sealling problem I’d go to a new set a mahle p&c.

Shout out to EBS Racing:
They stood by their work
They inspected and re-plated my cylinders
They added a skirt coating to the JE pistons
They shipped them back to me
For FREE.
Solved the ring seating problem.


In the end, I should have bought a set of $4000 P&C from Mahle instead.

And a good shop may not take the job if you have KS alusil cylinders and you don’t want to pay the extra for Mahle replacements.

But I was financially tapped out at that point. Subsbsequent top ends cost far less than $3000 in new seals and gaskets. Labor was free. So maybe it was worth it

This is really important - these days everyone is the click of a mouse away from wholesale prices on parts and it has potential to cut into profit for shops. So $12k in parts from a DIY'er is going to be another, what - 30, 40%? more at a shop.

Wow... that's a S-ton of $$.... If you don't have to have the new engine tomorrow you can get a lot of this stuff on the Classified forum or eBay. I did mine about 10 years ago for under $4k, but it took me over a year to collect all the right parts for cheap. Just depends on your schedule and resources.


-Michael

I don’t know what a shop would charge for parts, but it is their business. They have to pay the bills to be there when you ask them to do work. Can’t hold it against them.

And not all engines are priced the same. If you get a set of 2.7 RS spec Mahles like I did, they are closer to $4000.

One cannot overlook resources. The extent of a rebuild and the level of restoration to new does have a huge impact on cost. And I can sympathize with budget based rebuilds and honestly agree with them, the caveat is you cannot expect like new reliability.

I wanted an engine that could go for ten plus years and survive high rpms and track day abuse with expected reliability of the original factory build. $12k was the price.

Only a very few parts added a lot of cost. Tensioners, chains cam drive parts added up pretty fast.

$800 for the crankshaft was a “bargain” compared to finding a new or otherwise refurbished crankshaft. The weld repair also solved a ticking problem related to the cam gear being loose on the shaft.

P&C will remain the single biggest hit. I was going to reuse mine, but the ring lands were was too wide.

Refurbished Rods bearings and Raceware bolts were over $1k

Those four things are over $4k alone.

I understand how you could keep the cost down with the classifieds, but are you getting already used parts? Is that in line with your rebuild goals? Your choice. And that is perfectly fine with me. No judgment whatsoever. I just wanted folks to know what a full R&R build really costs.

That was about the going price for Mahle from EBS back in the later 90's. I am getting older though and memory not so sharp. Possibly low three thousands?

I went fat and assumed the priced was around $5k now for new and backed off roughly $2k for OP's spend on P&C. That's where the $3k came from. Just an incremental spend. Not stand alone.

One lesson I learned in my rebuild (82 SC, 183k miles I bought with engine out/apart due to started, then stalled broken head stud job): that Alusils are not the disposable junk many would have us believe. I was on a budget but wanted to do mine right, so having identified they were Kolbenschmidt Alusils, figured I'd need to send them out for Nikasil conversion and, say JE pistons, or buy a Mahle set. I'd read the lengthy thread about this and posted something that caught Tom Butler's eye (aka Tom's Rennshop). He measured my cylinders (they were in spec), and the pistons and rings (also in spec). He did a special/light honing process. I've put 10K miles on the engine since rebuilding and she's a beauty. This allowed me to get the car done and on the road a year sooner than I anticipated (not having to spend that extra $4K). Now, I'm not presenting this in confilxt to anything VFR is saying, rather it's just as a service to anyone rebuilding an Alusil-equipped engine who finds this excellent thread: your Alusils aren't necessarily junk. John

I paid that 6 months ago.

I’ve known Tom for a long time and have visited his Rennshop.

He inspected my KS cylinders and they were ok. Unfortunately the pistons weren’t in spec. So they were not salvageable.

At first I bought a set of used mahle cylinders from Tom, and was going to get a set of JE pistons, but it turned out it was cheaper to go the EBS route, and I returned the cylinders back to him.

So it is an option to reused the KS p&cs.

2.7 Mahle are much cheaper. Not sure why.

Thanks Mike, I often wondered the answer to that question. Excellent spreadsheet. Suppose I should create a 'rainy day fund' for the eventuality of a rebuild.

Do you even know whether you have Alusil or Nikasil cylinders? My Alusils measured .0015 or less wear, well within factory wear spec of .0060. I cleaned them up REAL good and rings seated immediately. Nikasils can be cleaned, honed and reused. According to my understanding. These cylinders do not need to be replated. That is one thing I noticed about the invoice.

There other is crankshaft work. These crankshafts should not be messed with much. Minor repair, perhaps. But welding, grinding, polishing....generally not recommended. Find a good used crank. Again, according to my understanding.

Yes, a P&C set has been $3K+ for many years.

Also, if the engine will be apart, then be SURE to send the parts to your machine shop for inspection. Rods especially, of course. Rockers and shafts. And make sure the oil galleries are clean. Remove and clean the squirter rods in the cam housing.

Armondo at CCR did the weld repair. He is well known as an excellent welder.

He welded the keyway and shaft surface where the cam drive gear fits. No significant torque there. So there are places where welding is ok.

Before I bought my car, I got Wayne’s rebuilding book for Christmas 2003. Rebuilding planning started then. I started buying parts and tool about 4 years before so the initial financial hit was spread out.

Yes Kobellschimdt (KS) alusil cylinders can be reused.

Finding good pistons can be a challenge, they have unique coating.. And finding new piston rings is very difficult. You can’t put Mahle or aftermarket pistons.

Hence the market was created for nikasil plating the KS cylinders.

You can get 3.1 P&C from a forum member here for under $3K I think.. as another option...

I still find Porsche engine costs to be criminal for the performance delivered.

Wow! Great thread.

I'd love to do a 3.2SS one day and do an EFI/ITB conversion. My guess is that would easily add another $8k + dyno time for tuning. I have no justifiable reason to do it right now. And the cost is disillusioning.

One thing is apparent from reading older rebuild threads and from looking at the prices quoted in Wayne's book... it will always be cheaper today than it will be tomorrow.

Can you use stock 3.2L cylinders and then buy pistons to help balance out the costs a bit? I image a good set of used 3.2L cylinders might save a good bit over a full set of P&C's for a 3.2ss build?

Mike Bruns from Florida helped me rebuild the 3.0L in my car years ago when he worked for J&B Racing. We built it to turn 8500 rpm and had some racing tricks added for longevity. My cam is special and so I only turn it 7200 rpm but I did have a missed shift years ago that I saw 8000 rpm with no problems. Mike ran it on the dyno 34 times for break-in and tuning single and twin plugs. My cost then was about $12k also. I sold a few parts including the 2.7L.

I’m using the OPs spreadsheet as a starting point with the the Supertec 3.1L kit in mind. There are some places I’ll be able to save money and there are still a lot of unknowns without getting the engine apart, it’s going to be expensive regardless.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you but the 3.0sc and 3.2 carerra both use 95mm p&c, the later is just a longer stroke. I know some people bore out the 95mm carerra cylinders to 98mm for a 3.2ss. It’s my understanding the SC cylinders are unsuitable for this practice, this seems to be the most cost effective approach to a 3.2ss.

yea, I just have such a hard time with Porsche engine build costs, in just about any other brand that isn't Italian the power would be double and the cost would be a third. lol

It makes me want to run toward the nearest 90's Japanese car.

Wait till you rebuild a transmission........

Been there done that... I hate nothing more than a Porsche 915 transmission. Really wish I had bought that R32 now. lol

LOL. Over the past 35 years I considered selling my 911 and buying a *cough* honda or toyota. Then I realized that it would take more than one honda or toyota to last me over that period of time.

When is the last time you saw a '70s or '80s car being driven regularly?

yea, but for the price of my 911 I could have several JDM cars that are faster and equally fun.

Heck i'm about to buy a 20 year old STi (that is cheaper then my 915 rebuild) just so I can have a fast car. lol

I was looking at old AE86 Corolla's, used BEAMS engines 207hp, 11.5:1, 8000rpm, titanium valves... only 1200.00 including the six speed!!!.... while a used Porsche engine is $10-18K.... it's just crazy.

The Costs for Porsche performance is just out of pace with reality, if my cars value hadn't dropped like a rock since I bought it I would get out.