1980 SC Newbie - Help Needed!

[Ryoder]

Hello everyone, after a long time lurking I finally took the air cooled plunge and purchased a 1980 911 SC Targa with roughly 121k miles. Would love your expertise in diagnosing some problems with the car. I took delivery of the car yesterday and these are the problems I am already having..

Problem #1. Car starts right up when cold and idles for about 3-4 min then dies. I can start it back up then it dies again in about 15-30 seconds. I can keep it running after this by giving it a little gas and keeping the rpms up.

Problem# 2. After the car has started to warm up while driving it will die when when I come to a stop or the car is in neutral for more than a couple seconds. Starts right up and I can continue on my way.

Problem #3. I drove car yesterday around the neighborhood for about 7 min then let it idle in front of my house for another 5 min. Shut it off and came back out 15 min later and the car would not start. Also seemed like it was cranking a little slow.

I pushed the car in the garage, put it on a trickle charge for an hour, let the engine cool down then it started again but problem #1 surfaced again..

Here is what I tested:
It seemed odd the engine was turning slowly during problem #3 because the battery is only 3 days old so I tested to see if it could be the alternator. Battery was at 12.7v with key off and 12.7v with car running. Could this be attributed to an alternator? I also have a suspicion a Fuel Accumulator could be to blame but that just from reading on here.


Other items to note:
The car got out of the shop 5 days ago from the Previous Owner and this is what was done..
1. Battery and ground cable
2. New distributor cap, rotor, spark plugs and ignition wires
3. Replace belts
4. Replace broken vacuum line @ throttle body
4. Shop set enrichment and idle @ shop (idles at 900 rpm)


**Finally if any of you are from the St Pete, Fl area I would love to meet you and learn all I can about these cars. Free beer is always available to anyone that wants to swing by and check it out.

[LIRS6]

Hi - suggest to get acquainted with CIS by thoroughly reading the below thread - no quick answers to your various issues. Buy a set of gauges immediately, and get to work.

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/758788-cis-troubleshooting-dummies.html

Originally Posted by Ryoder

Problem #1. Car starts right up when cold and idles for about 3-4 min then dies. I can start it back up then it dies again in about 15-30 seconds. I can keep it running after this by giving it a little gas and keeping the rpms up. - could be WUR ... or any one of other several component issues, or combination of them : AAV, TTV, etc

Problem# 2. After the car has started to warm up while driving it will die when when I come to a stop or the car is in neutral for more than a couple seconds. Starts right up and I can continue on my way. Again, could be WUR or other

Problem #3. I drove car yesterday around the neighborhood for about 7 min then let it idle in front of my house for another 5 min. Shut it off and came back out 15 min later and the car would not start. Also seemed like it was cranking a little slow.

I pushed the car in the garage, put it on a trickle charge for an hour, let the engine cool down then it started again but problem #1 surfaced again..

Here is what I tested:
It seemed odd the engine was turning slowly during problem #3 because the battery is only 3 days old so I tested to see if it could be the alternator. Battery was at 12.7v with key off and 12.7v with car running. Could this be attributed to an alternator? I also have a suspicion a Fuel Accumulator could be to blame but that just from reading on here. 12.7 is low imo - should be high 13's. As ground cable was messed with from what you say below, I would check ground again


Other items to note:
The car got out of the shop 5 days ago from the Previous Owner and this is what was done..
1. Battery and ground cable
2. New distributor cap, rotor, spark plugs and ignition wires
3. Replace belts
4. Replace broken vacuum line @ throttle body
4. Shop set enrichment and idle @ shop (idles at 900 rpm) - playing with enrichment might just be shop's way of dealing with a problem without addressing the true issue(s)


**Finally if any of you are from the St Pete, Fl area I would love to meet you and learn all I can about these cars. Free beer is always available to anyone that wants to swing by and check it out. - this will attract help I'm sure

Good luck!

Oh, and pics of your new purchase are imperative.

Jason

[Ryoder]

Thanks Jason! I will read up some more

Here is a picture of the new to me Targa




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LIRS6]

^^^ Nice ! ^^^

[Craig]

Nice SC!

Seems to me that if it just got out of the shop 5 days ago, maybe you could take the car back to them and see if they will do some diagnostics for free. 5 days is really short time from the shop, no matter that it changed hands in the meantime. It doesn't sound like you have done anything to it but drive it.

Craig

[pmax]

Welcome to the club !

The same voltage when running indicates the alternator is not charging. I would fix that first. Was it working prior ?

[Starless]

If you can keep it running by giving it gas, it may be a vacuum leak. That has happened to me several times and it always turned out to be a vac leak. Also since they replaced a vac line on the throttle body, you may want to start there. Or bring it back to whoever replace the line.

[Bill Douglas]

Nice!!!

[Ryoder]

Originally Posted by Craig

Nice SC!

Seems to me that if it just got out of the shop 5 days ago, maybe you could take the car back to them and see if they will do some diagnostics for free. 5 days is really short time from the shop, no matter that it changed hands in the meantime. It doesn't sound like you have done anything to it but drive it.

Craig

Wish I could, Unfortunately the shop was in South Carolina and the car is now located in Florida. Yep the only thing I have done is drive it about .5 miles around a circle in my neighborhood.

Originally Posted by pmax

Welcome to the club !

The same voltage when running indicates the alternator is not charging. I would fix that first. Was it working prior ?

No clue if it was working prior, I took ownership of the car yesterday. It might have been bad before and thats why they replaced the battery thinking that was the culprit. I am going to try testing the voltage above 2500 RPM tonight just to double check.

Originally Posted by Starless

If you can keep it running by giving it gas, it may be a vacuum leak. That has happened to me several times and it always turned out to be a vac leak. Also since they replaced a vac line on the throttle body, you may want to start there. Or bring it back to whoever replace the line.

I wish I could take it back but the shop was in SC and im now in FL. I will look into the vac lines. That does seem to make sense.

Kills me as I just took delivery of the car yesterday and it was supposed to be all sorted and ready to go upon arrival, but I guess thats air cooled ownership from what everyone is telling me.

[pampadori]

Charge issue could be the ground strap under the car by the transmission.
To check if it's a grounding issue, grab you jumper cables and connect one end of the black wire to the fan shroud. Connect the other end of the black wire to the chassis somewhere that's metal. Check your voltage with the motor running before and after the black wire is connected to the chassis.
It's a very common problem the ground strap gets too much resistance and battery won't charge as a result. Just one of many things you can check for free.
Good luck!

[pmax]

I wouldn't sweat the problems you have listed.

It's an old car, probably seldom driven by the PO hence will have accumulated its share of minor issues !

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by Ryoder

Kills me as I just took delivery of the car yesterday and it was supposed to be all sorted and ready to go upon arrival, but I guess thats air cooled ownership from what everyone is telling me.

Once you get the few annoyances sorted these old tubs will give an Accord a run for the money as to reliability.

Check your grounds and then replace the alternator if no improvement.

It does not have to be the squillion amp $600 version. FLAPS (Friendly Local Auto Parts Store) sell them for a couple hundred bucks.

These cars like juice. I would nail this first.

[Vintage56]

Agree with the prior posts...Check basic stuff before you move onto to bigger ticket items...I agree to check the tightening the ground strap, but first make sure that there is a metal to metal connection at the strap to the chassis. Sometimes paint or debris gets in the way. I would disconnect and clean and reconnect with a new clean washer.

Check the battery connections, make sure they are tight. Sometimes very old battery cable connectors may appear tight but there is still room to tighten further. I had this happen to me for fear i'd snap the clamp,...it was just too loose and caused intermittent issues..Also, make sure the ground end at the battery is connected to a solid chassis ground. Like the ground strap at the transmission, make sure it is metal to metal. Use a new washer.

On the vacuum leak, check hoses for connection, but I have seen shops use the wrong size hoses in some instances that were too large and created a leak...so check that the hoses are not only in-place & connected, but are tight.

When the car is idling, are you getting a steady 900-950RPM? Idle may be set too low.

If there are still low voltage readings at idle, may need a new alternator.
Good luck...let us know what you find out and how issues were ultimately resolved.

[tirwin]

Ryoder,

Congrats! Great looking car.

A few thoughts...

Problem #1: The time is interesting. From cold start 3-4 minutes is the approximate amount of time that it takes to transition from cold running to warm (normal) operation. Could be that it is running too rich or too lean at that point and that is the reason for it stalling. This is just a hunch based on your description. Need to gather some more facts before drawing a conclusion. When initially started did the engine idle at 1200-1400 rpms and then slowly settle to ~950?

Problem 2: Consistant with theory that warmed up engine AFR is not right. Sudden stalls could be CDI box but I wouldn’t go there until ruling out fuel/air issues.

Problem 3: Again, consistent with incorrect AFR. Could be a component but best to be methodical and not jump to random part swapping.

I see you’re on the path of checking alternator/battery/groud strap. Suggest you conclude those tests first. Next step would be to get a set of fuel pressure gauges and do the tests in CIS for Dummies thread.

A quick and easy test is once the car is warmed up and idling in the driveway, take the oil fill cap off. You should hear rpms change. If not you have a good sized vac leak somewhere.

Good luck!

[1979-930]

Nice car and you have plenty of correct advise above to start with.
I just wanted to welcome you to the "Yes honey; I spent $$,$$$.$$ for a car that needs work" club.

[Ryoder]

Originally Posted by pampadori

Charge issue could be the ground strap under the car by the transmission.
To check if it's a grounding issue, grab you jumper cables and connect one end of the black wire to the fan shroud. Connect the other end of the black wire to the chassis somewhere that's metal. Check your voltage with the motor running before and after the black wire is connected to the chassis.
It's a very common problem the ground strap gets too much resistance and battery won't charge as a result. Just one of many things you can check for free.
Good luck!

I will check the ground strap tonight, thanks!

Originally Posted by pmax

I wouldn't sweat the problems you have listed.

It's an old car, probably seldom driven by the PO hence will have accumulated its share of minor issues !

Looking forward to sorting out the small stuff and getting on the road!

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

Once you get the few annoyances sorted these old tubs will give an Accord a run for the money as to reliability.

Check your grounds and then replace the alternator if no improvement.

It does not have to be the squillion amp $600 version. FLAPS (Friendly Local Auto Parts Store) sell them for a couple hundred bucks.

These cars like juice. I would nail this first.

Perfect, I will look into the grounds then move to alternator. Thanks for the recommendation on the alternator as well.

Originally Posted by Vintage56

Agree with the prior posts...Check basic stuff before you move onto to bigger ticket items...I agree to check the tightening the ground strap, but first make sure that there is a metal to metal connection at the strap to the chassis. Sometimes paint or debris gets in the way. I would disconnect and clean and reconnect with a new clean washer.

Check the battery connections, make sure they are tight. Sometimes very old battery cable connectors may appear tight but there is still room to tighten further. I had this happen to me for fear i'd snap the clamp,...it was just too loose and caused intermittent issues..Also, make sure the ground end at the battery is connected to a solid chassis ground. Like the ground strap at the transmission, make sure it is metal to metal. Use a new washer.

On the vacuum leak, check hoses for connection, but I have seen shops use the wrong size hoses in some instances that were too large and created a leak...so check that the hoses are not only in-place & connected, but are tight.

When the car is idling, are you getting a steady 900-950RPM? Idle may be set too low.

If there are still low voltage readings at idle, may need a new alternator.
Good luck...let us know what you find out and how issues were ultimately resolved.

Yea its steady at 900-950 at idle, it isnt much higher while warming up though. I would have to see the idle process of one thats really dialed in to see how far off mine is from normal..

Originally Posted by tirwin

Ryoder,

Congrats! Great looking car.

A few thoughts...

Problem #1: The time is interesting. From cold start 3-4 minutes is the approximate amount of time that it takes to transition from cold running to warm (normal) operation. Could be that it is running too rich or too lean at that point and that is the reason for it stalling. This is just a hunch based on your description. Need to gather some more facts before drawing a conclusion. When initially started did the engine idle at 1200-1400 rpms and then slowly settle to ~950?

Problem 2: Consistant with theory that warmed up engine AFR is not right. Sudden stalls could be CDI box but I wouldn’t go there until ruling out fuel/air issues.

Problem 3: Again, consistent with incorrect AFR. Could be a component but best to be methodical and not jump to random part swapping.

I see you’re on the path of checking alternator/battery/groud strap. Suggest you conclude those tests first. Next step would be to get a set of fuel pressure gauges and do the tests in CIS for Dummies thread.

A quick and easy test is once the car is warmed up and idling in the driveway, take the oil fill cap off. You should hear rpms change. If not you have a good sized vac leak somewhere.

Good luck!

This is all great advice. I will also be checking the oil fill cap tonight to see if I hear a change in RPM. In addition I have been reading through your CIS for dummies thread.. Verrry insightful.

Originally Posted by 1979-930

Nice car and you have plenty of correct advise above to start with.
I just wanted to welcome you to the "Yes honey; I spent $$,$$$.$$ for a car that needs work" club.

Fortunately she is fully on board with my hobbies and all the money they seem to suck up! I think she is just as excited as I am for our first longer drive along the beach.

[Vintage56]

I cannot help write this note since this is a new purchase.

If you bought this from a Dealer, I would insist on a credit to cover the cost that you ultimately spend to get this car right. I would insist on this even if you bought the car "AS IS, WHERE IS"...A Dealer has got to stand behind the sale. If he/she tells you to go pound sand, I'd write to the State's BBB and post a nasty note about the Dealer on Google. The entire world will see it when they search that Seller's name in the future....Just sayin'.....

If this was a private purchase, I think you also have recourse to the Seller. He should honor the cost of the repair. He should understand the issues you're facing and want to help right them. Admittedly you have less recourse with a Private Seller than a Dealer. If he/she tells you to go pound sand, you have less leverage.

In addition, I'd call the shop where the latest most recent work was done. Look over their invoice. Talk to the shop owner. I realize it is 2 States away, but you can also contact that State's BBB and write a nasty rating on Google if you get no satisfaction or worse, they refuse to even talk with you. That would tell me volumes...Perhaps they will tell you that they told the Seller of these issues and the Seller ignored them.

Sorry. I think there is no excuse for selling a car that has issues UNLESS THESE WERE EXPLAINED AND YOU KNEW THIS WHEN YOU BOUGHT IT...Really have no patience for Seller's who just stick you with their problem, unless of course, you knew what you were buying. From your opening post, it sure sounds like a surprise to you.

[QueWhy]

Originally Posted by Vintage56

I cannot help write this note since this is a new purchase.

If you bought this from a Dealer, I would insist on a credit to cover the cost that you ultimately spend to get this car right. I would insist on this even if you bought the car "AS IS, WHERE IS"...A Dealer has got to stand behind the sale. If he/she tells you to go pound sand, I'd write to the State's BBB and post a nasty note about the Dealer on Google. The entire world will see it when they search that Seller's name in the future....Just sayin'.....

If this was a private purchase, I think you also have recourse to the Seller. He should honor the cost of the repair. He should understand the issues you're facing and want to help right them. Admittedly you have less recourse with a Private Seller than a Dealer. If he/she tells you to go pound sand, you have less leverage.

In addition, I'd call the shop where the latest most recent work was done. Look over their invoice. Talk to the shop owner. I realize it is 2 States away, but you can also contact that State's BBB and write a nasty rating on Google if you get no satisfaction or worse, they refuse to even talk with you. That would tell me volumes...Perhaps they will tell you that they told the Seller of these issues and the Seller ignored them.

Sorry. I think there is no excuse for selling a car that has issues UNLESS THESE WERE EXPLAINED AND YOU KNEW THIS WHEN YOU BOUGHT IT...Really have no patience for Seller's who just stick you with their problem, unless of course, you knew what you were buying. From your opening post, it sure sounds like a surprise to you.

Caveat Emptor.....

Sorry, I don’t see thing the way you do. I agree the seller/shop/dealer should help make things right but ultimately the responsibility is on the buyer.

[Vintage56]

Yes, agree, it's ultimately the Buyer who needs to investigate and know what they are buying...But not if the issues were known and not revealed and especially this is so in the case of a Dealer who wants to keep his/her reputation.

[Ryoder]

Originally Posted by Vintage56

I cannot help write this note since this is a new purchase.

If you bought this from a Dealer, I would insist on a credit to cover the cost that you ultimately spend to get this car right. I would insist on this even if you bought the car "AS IS, WHERE IS"...A Dealer has got to stand behind the sale. If he/she tells you to go pound sand, I'd write to the State's BBB and post a nasty note about the Dealer on Google. The entire world will see it when they search that Seller's name in the future....Just sayin'.....

If this was a private purchase, I think you also have recourse to the Seller. He should honor the cost of the repair. He should understand the issues you're facing and want to help right them. Admittedly you have less recourse with a Private Seller than a Dealer. If he/she tells you to go pound sand, you have less leverage.

In addition, I'd call the shop where the latest most recent work was done. Look over their invoice. Talk to the shop owner. I realize it is 2 States away, but you can also contact that State's BBB and write a nasty rating on Google if you get no satisfaction or worse, they refuse to even talk with you. That would tell me volumes...Perhaps they will tell you that they told the Seller of these issues and the Seller ignored them.

Sorry. I think there is no excuse for selling a car that has issues UNLESS THESE WERE EXPLAINED AND YOU KNEW THIS WHEN YOU BOUGHT IT...Really have no patience for Seller's who just stick you with their problem, unless of course, you knew what you were buying. From your opening post, it sure sounds like a surprise to you.

If this was a dealer I do agree with you about reaching out to see if they can help resolve the issue.

In my case I purchased this from a private seller.. i believe he is also active on this forum but I do not know his username. He and I have been in contact since I took delivery, and he has been helpful but there has not been any offer to help money wise to resolve the issues.