Wanted to lower my SC...ran into a challenge
 

Hello all,

Long time 911 fan, and finally picked up my first one last summer after dreaming for 40 years. It's a clean car and drives well....looks stock but has some tasteful mods in my opinion...930 tie rods/lsd/brakes, Billstein, and B&B exhaust/headers, etc.

It rides higher than I'd like and like a lot of you want to get it to a better stance. I've done a lot of searching on this forum to try to figure out what I can do, but figured I should post here.

My car has some modified Fuchs. I believe they're from Lindsey Racing and think Jack Olsen has the same wheels (only wider) on his beautiful '72 RSR. I think mine are 9" in the rear.

I took the car into the local Porsche dealer and they showed me that I don't have much clearance due to the width, and I'm already too close to the oil line (may rub on up travel). The front's rub the inside of the driver side fender on hard turning/backing up (I haven't felt it).

The mechanic suggested I get some spacers to push the wheel out since the adjusting the camber would bring it even closer to the line. Perhaps 10 or 15mm spacer would be enough and also allow me to lower one notch. He was thinking 5mm on the front, and also suggested a bump steering kit.

I've posted my photos and wanted to see what any of you thought.

I've read that spacers aren't advised and can put unwanted load on the bearings, but have read mixed opinions on this. I'm not going to be racing this car...it's simply a cruiser and a car that I enjoy taking my kids on rides, etc. If I didn't have five kids, I'd probably try to do more of the work myself, but the time!?

1. Should I be concerned about the spacers?
2. Do I need the Bump steering kit?

I tried reaching out to Lindsey Racing, but I think they must be out of business, so no luck there either.

Thank you!!!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1557936465.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1557936465.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1557936465.jpg

It's hard to know, since those are custom wheels. But a 10 mm spacer should be no big deal, as long as your lug bolts are long enough to fully engage the nuts with the spacers on.

Problem them might be rubbing on the fender lip.

Tell us what size tires you have. Try to measure the rim width as best you can.

I would remove the rear wheel and try to see if you can re-locate the oil line. Another option is Elephant racing and others have replacement oil lines that go over the wheel arch and out of the way.

Spacers work fine. The 930s used spacers from the factory. You probably only need about 7mm anyways

Btw, if it were me, I would take a big crescent wrench and slightly bend the oil line in. It won’t take much. I bet the oil line is probably bent anyways. I don’t recall that oil line being close to the tire/wheel at all.

9" fits the back fine when the ET is right I use 9.5 on mine and w/ 255/40 x17 tires there is plenty of room on both sides, when I used 275/40 I had to relocate the oil line down into the crease below where it sits stock and trim the nuts/bolts on the trailing arms.

So the questions that need to be answered wrt your case,what ET and what size tires, you also fail to describe the same in front

Here's mine w/ 225/45 on 8 and 255/40 on 9.5 all in 17, Most won't want to run this low
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1557941690.jpg

Thanks everyone! I have 255/40 x 17 on the rear and 205/50 x 17 on the front.

I believe they are 9"in the back...8" in the front (width). Would need to measure again.

I sit on 7x16 & 9x16 Turbo offsets 205/55/16/ & 245/45/16 Touch below euro height. Slight roll to front fenders. No issues otherwisehttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1557943405.jpg

Car looks pretty slammed already, I don't think an additional 10mm lowering is going to affect clearance. If you're happy with how the car drives, no real need to spend a bunch on spacers and such.

Also hooray for ruby red coupes.

Did you roll both front and rear fenders? Thx!

Amen on the Ruby Red :-)

She's currently set at the American spec or higher I believe...so coming down a bit would make a difference on look in my opinion. Always agree on lower cost :-) But even if I did nothing, I think I need to make more clearance for the Oil Line and the fronts are rubbing on strong turns (or had before my ownership)

Gorgeous car, ski--and it looks like you live in an equally gorgeous place. I do love me some Ruby Red and mountains. Welcome!

Car looks fine to me as is, but lowering it is, of course, up to you. My car was equipped with 25mm spacers at the rear when I got it. I originally had a set of 8 x 16s on at the rear, but have since gone back to 7 x 16 Fuchs all the way around. It does require longer wheel studs. I've had no problems at all.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1557945070.jpg

Love the white as well. I think white goes especially well on the G-series. I'm sure I'm bias, but I think Porsche does colors best.

I don't want to go too low...at either Euro or just a tad below. Agree that it's not bad now. I love the original 16" Fuchs as well...beautiful car, and I love Seattle.

Second on loving the white.

Just the front

Offset on the right rear is tight. The clearance due to the oil lines drove my offset choice when I ordered my wheels. It sucks to have to use a spacer and might be be a cost issue to go with different wheels.

Love the Ruby Red.....

^
Maybe....maybe not. You won't know until you lower the car and drive it. I opted for the kit. The roads aren't great where I am and the wheel jerk was a bit startling to me.

Right, but selling these wheels/tires and finding new ones is also a cost, so spacers maybe best option. If there's enough room on the lug nuts and still enough clearance from the line, maybe not a bad fix.

Someone above mentioned bending the line a bit as well.

Thx for the compliment on the color!

Looks Euro height to me. Generally, these cars are not meant to be "slammed".
Did you measure it from the ground to the lip?

SC ride height
 

See if the car still has the fat washer between top of shock and body.
targadan

You need the widths and ETs

if you don't know the ETs at least provide the backspace from the pic it appears to ~6" but a measurement would be informative.



This wheel is prepped to measure backspace, the perpendicular distance from the mounting face to the lath

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1557953138.jpg

Elephant Racing offers a high clearance oil line that might help.

Ok, car has a full tank of gas - so probably dropped a tad.

Rear wheels - Height from ground (flat surface) to lip = just over 26"
Front wheels - Height from ground to lip = just below 26"

It appears w/these wheels that I could come down an inch w/the camber and be ok...that is if I can avoid the Oil line.

I don't have the ET yet, as I haven't taken off the wheels...but I did my best to remeasure the width of the rubber sidewall to sidewall and I think the backs are now 10".

Here's about as low as I've run my car, this is with pretty stiff torsion bars but similar wheel specs to yours:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1558020024.JPG

FYI this is how Porsche delivered their test car to Car and Driver in 1984, which is post the "US height" period. That means this is actually real Euro height. Correct, factory method of measurement is from the center of the torsion bar to the hub, you can find the procedure and spec in a lot of posts:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1558020052.jpg

Most of us (myself included) like how the cars look when they are quite a bit lower than actual Euro height. At some point, people started calling anything lowered "Euro height" which makes it confusing.

The special US height for bumper restrictions was hilaribad, looks like those tacky Safari conversions that are so trendy right now. From a 1978 911SC review:

https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod...-s-986x603.jpg

A thick washer was user to raise car up on top of shock to be USA legal. Just remove

The response from Lindsey Racing....

Hello,

They sure look like my wheels. Considering this is a stock body with the SC flare, I think they are 8" front and 9" rears. The wheel width is measured on the inside of the rim, where the tire seals. If you measured the overall width of the rim you would be roughly 1 inch larger. So you 8" front wheel would measure close to 9" and your 9" would be 10" out to out. You can't put a 9.5" on the rear without relocating the oil line inside the RR wheel well.

The backspace dimension on both the front and rears assuming they are 8&9 inch wheels is 5.75". That is a 32mm offset on the front wheel and 19mm offset on the rear.
Be careful on spacers, more so the lug nut you are using. The factory alloy nuts have 2x the diameter of the wheel stud in thread engagement. The rule of thumb is 1 x the diameter for steel, 1.5 x for cast iron, 2 x for aluminum.

If you reduce the engagement on the lug nut by adding a spacer, you need to change over to a steel nut. We sell an open end steel lug nut, or you can buy a chrome plated steel nut. They are both listed on this page.
https://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Parts/GENLUGNUT.html

The other options is to put longer studs in the rear and stay with the stock lug nuts. Your stud length options are on the same page.
Hope that helps.

Regards
Mike Lindsey

After reviewing,

For the rear wheels - I think the best option is to relocate the oil line. Once that's done, I should have plenty of room to lower and apply camber (I think).

For the front wheels - If I understand Mike's note right, I think I may need to use spacers and longer studs in order to give more clearance to the inside fender which is being rubbed (see new photo)...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1558031388.jpg

Question:

1. If I add a spacer to the front wheels, should I add it to the rears?

2. I'm guessing I should relocate the oil line regardless, but if I take the spacer approach w/the new studs, should that work instead?

I care most about doing the right thing, but would rather pay less doing it.

THANK YOU!

1. Totally cosmetic and personal preference. There won't be a marked difference in handling over a few millimeters of additional track width.

2. It should. Hard to say definitively without seeing your car, knowing how much you're going to change camber, and knowing just how far you intend to lower it.

Lowering a car does not just move the wheel(s) straight up and down. The suspension articulates and that can compromise/exaggerate your clearances.

I have a brand new in plastic one of these lines that I am not going to use. PM if interested. I bought it for my 72 and then had to take a different direction to make my oil system.

Love the '72. I believe the '72 system is the one year that's unique per the website. They have a line pre-1972 and post.

https://www.elephantracing.com/porsche/911/oil-cooling-for-911/oil-lines-hoses-fittings/oil-lines-hoses/#prettyPhoto

Yes. The 72 oil system is unique. Even more so when you put a later engine and home-built oil cooler system in the car. I had to custom make my oil lines.

I do agree with the post (Scott Post #4) above. I would just bend the metal section closer to the longitudinal frame "rail" to gain some more tire clearance. This could be done in the car. The tubing is soft and malleable. Doesn't cost anything to try.

On the left is mine on the right is yours w/ Lindsey wheels per you description

In front the range for an 8 is ET25 to ET30, yours w/ ET31 is pushed in avoiding a lip issue but increasing an issue on the inside, it looks sit's rubbing at full lock. A typical solution is to use a 5mm spacer, The stock lug nuts should be able to handle that w/o issue for street use.

In back you can probably get away w/ what you have, but for insurance relocate the oil line down into the crease, this isn't a big deal
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1558128347.gif

Here's a pic of mine w/ the relocated oil line
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1558043778.jpg

Just for reference my fenders are 24 5/8" & 23 7/8", no rub

My observations:
Disregard the posts that describe different wheels and MY chassis - they don't apply to your SC with 17" Lindsey wheels.

The front wheel inner rub in your photo looks like interference when the wheel is at full lock rather than from suspension compression. Not sure inserting a spacer is going to resolve that. Most front end interference is at the front fender lip at a couple of clock positions. In addition, your “rub” mark looks pretty severe, a gouge caused by something harder than tire rubber (or an optical effect)? I enhanced the photo a bit and noticed some semblance of sidewall rubbing, but no rub marks on the edge where tread meets sidewall, which is usually the outermost edge of a tire. Hmmm.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1558050694.jpg

The commonly-used Lindsey Fuchs frt/rear tires are what Bill mentioned (255/40-17 and 225/45-17). I haven’t seen many posts from Lindsey users citing interference at that front location. Limiting the max. lock position is possible, but a real fix is suggested.

As for the rear:
The rear lip is usually not in the path of a close-fitting tire/wheel. As the tire/wheel width increases and/or as the ride height drops, the tire arcs upward, and will rub a half crescent mark on the back side of the fender a couple inches up from the wheel well lip and will eventually burn that pattern through the paint.

I’d follow Bill’s suggestion and re-route the inner fender oil line so it sits both higher and closer to the chassis metal. That might cost you some labor. No spacer. Your ground to wheel well lip ride height of 26” isn’t very low. Typically, you should have a good inch lower to go if needed. I suggest not messing with torsion bars or wheel alignment specs for add’l active tire clearance. If you have a typical wheel/tire combo, adjust the ride height. Otherwise, rethink that wheel/tire choice. Compromising in this area isn’t suggested.

BTW, there’s nothing against safely using temporary wheel spacers to ball-park the needed spacer width. Confine vehicle operation to within 20’ of your workspace and only man-powered speed.

Sherwood

This is all very help feedback. It's a bummer I didn't see this before I purchased the car, as I think this would've been one of those things they should have covered. They were great and did some other things, but paid a premium for the car for a reason.

My first choice would be to make these wheels work...they really pop w/the color...maybe the car would be quicker w/a smaller wheel, but I've really enjoyed the ride so far.

Maybe I'm not understanding you here...don't you have to adjust the torsion bars to lower the rear? Or are you just saying don't mess w/them or alignment specs just for the sake of clearance?

Regarding the rear, I think I have to move the line (see photo) http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1558056676.jpg

It appears some adjustments were made when the new exhaust was put in, blocking my ability to move the line to the left away from the wheel, thus safest bet is to relocate that line as has been advised. Once that's done, I'm assuming I can safely lower the car an inch.

Regarding the rear: I went and took a closer look. I turned the wheel sharply to the left and it is apparent that it is infact, coming from the tire. Still interesting how a tire could cause that kind of a mark, but I think that's what it is. The rim of the wheel is too far inside to have caused it...I think. Do you not think a 5mm spacer would help w/that?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1558056676.jpg

Resetting ride height is fine. What I meant was to not change the suspension (i.e. larger torsion bars) or crank in some camber or toe changes just to mitigate the interference and/or create a workaround.

Not sure about the wheel/tire rub on the inner fender. Only rubs on the driver's side? Maybe start with confirming the backspacing of the Lindsey wheel. There's a related thread where Mike Lindsey answered a clearance issue and that front and rear offsets should be 5.75" (distance from mounting surface to tire bead).
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1029602-wanted-lower-my-sc-ran-into-challenge.html

Perhaps a nearby alignment shop with Porsche experience can take a look and offer some suggestions. I know, they're not everywhere. Is there a Porsche community nearby where you can share the issue? Maybe someone here can enlighten us.

While large flat washers aren't PAG or NASA-approved spacer material, a handful of them (or equiv.) slipped on the lug studs will tell you if an official spacer will help (caveats mentioned). I assume the pass. side is ok. So why the difference? LF/RF wheel offsets not the same, L/R toe adjustments not equivalent? Let's hope the front/rear geometry is within specs (no prior collision damage). An alignment and/or race tech pro might be able to confirm.

Sherwood

I'm in Utah...there are a couple Porsche dealers w/in 25 miles (one is w/in 5 miles). You would think I could get some guidance at one of them...there are also some local German/European car mechanic specialist as well.

Yeah, bugged a bit about why the left has marks and not the right as well.

I have a note into Mike Lindsey. He responded to me earlier in my discovery. I sent him more information and referenced this thread. Hopefully I can figure it out.

The car tracks very well....no pull, etc, even w/braking, so hopefully the chassis is pretty true, and I wonder if the last owner was just a bit ambitious to have some wide wheels...they look great, but gotta fit.

I REALLY appreciate all of the help/feedback and suggestions!

Alright, confirmed that the wheels (rims) are 8's and 9's and should fit. The problem w/the oil line is because it was moved closer to the wheel to make room for the exhaust system.

I'll move the line and try a spacer on the front.

FYI - Mike Lindsey and his brothers at Lindsey Racing have been very helpful!

Are you sure the rub mark is from your current set up?
I recently cleaned my wheel wells and found a mark like yours from the past.
I'd put some duct tape there.

The S hose is what gets close to the headers, Install a thermal barrier

here's what I did, Design Engineering heat shield, 1" x3' & some 8" Longacre ss header ties
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1558129852.JPG
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1558129852.JPG

Good thinking Bill!