Horrendous steering - '89 widebody conversion

[Tremelune]

I picked up an '89 coupe that was converted to a widebody. The steering ain't right and I aim to fix it.

The symptoms:

1) Extremely heavy steering - I used to have an M491 with 275-series tires in the front that was lowered to the floor, and it had lighter steering than this car.

2) Steering doesn't return to center - When you let go of the wheel while moving, it just...stays.

3) Play in the steering wheel - It's quite noticeable; all directions. Bit of a "click" when you hold it straight and push up, down, left, or right.

4) Squirrely at speed - Not dangerously so, but above maybe 75mph, the car does not inspire confidence. It does not feel like it's tramlining, though I can't rule it out. It's consistent on all roads.

Things I'm aware of:

1) Chassis is straight - I can't rule out an accident-free past, but I had a race shop put it on a frame machine because I didn't want to get deeper into the car without being certain of this. As far as I can tell, if the chassis is straight, this car can be made to drive better than factory. No rust anywhere.

2) Big wheel spacers - 28mm (factory rear 930) spacers up front, 65mm H&R adapters in the rear. I plan to replace these with proper offset wide wheels, but I'd like to defer that purchase until I get the steering sorted. Wheels are 7x16 and 8x16 factory Fuchs.

3) Alignment is visibly out of whack - You can see the difference in camber from one side to the other. This may very well be the source of the high-speed issues.

4) Tires ain't right - Fronts are 205/55-16 (stock), rears are 245/50-16 (not stock). Brands are different. It's not horrendous, but worthy of mention.

5) Ride height - Quick measurement shows ~26" give or take a half from the floor to the wheel arch. I wouldn't call it accurate 'cause of the tires and the fact that the flares have had work done for the conversion.

6) Steering wheel is a 350mm Momo - I believe this is smaller than stock, but I doubt heaviness could be wholly attributed to this. The "basket" adapter seemed sound—the play is...deeper in the column.

Looking everything over, all the components seem fine—great, in fact. The only thing untoward is that the "boot" over the steering column near the rack tends to bulge when you turn the wheel. That's currently my prime suspect.

So like, where do I start with diagnosis? I realize I can change the wheels/tires immediately and eliminate that as a variable, but I highly suspect they're not the primary problem (the steering). I could have the car aligned and see what improves, but I doubt it'll solve steering problem, and I'll need to have that done anyway if I take the suspension off.

I'm perfectly willing to take the whole suspension and steering system off and put it back on, but if I can do this in pieces without doing the same work twice, that would be nice. I tends towards unfinished projects...Maybe I can defer the upgrades but presumably I need to take the front suspension off to get at the rack? It sure seems like it's something in the rack and/or column...Can I pull the column without pulling the rack?

















Hi everyone! I moved to LA and I'm back on my bullsh:t.

[Jeff Alton]

If all components are in good shape, as you describe, put it on an alignment system and see what the read out says... Report back the specs. You already mentioned camber is visibly different, but based on your description it sounds like it has a caster problem and a toe problem as well. This should be easy to rectify.

Cheers

[jason t]

Like Jeff said above, take it to a shop to have the alignment checked. Not just a place with an alignment machine but one who has a technician that can diagnose the problem(s).

The rear wheel alignment could also cause the vehicle to hunt or wander then add those symptoms to steering looseness and mismatched tires- yikes.

It looks like the tie rods and possibly the rack and pinion was rebuilt or changed. If it was rebuilt possibly something wasn’t done right.

It is quite affordable to replace steering and suspension on these cars. Do it all once and forget about but only after you diagnose your steering issue(s).

[clutch-monkey]

i had the 'click' in a LHD to RHD conversion. turns out they had use the wrong bolts and just flipped the LHD rack upside down or some ****. i don't remember exactly but i put a proper rhd 993 rack in instead and it's been awesome.

[wilnj]

Seems to me that it would make the most sense to tackle the things you know are wrong that you’re going to fix anyway even if they’re not the principal cause of your problem.

Wheels and tires first, then alignment then start digging deeper.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[turbo ride]

When I first got my 91 Turbo I replaced only the rear tires - mixed brands. Wow I could not believe the effect! The car was scary above 60. Seriously. All over the place. I’d don’t think it’s the cause of your weird steering feel but could certainly be why it feels so unstable at speed.

[spoke]

Originally Posted by Tremelune

3) Play in the steering wheel - It's quite noticeable; all directions. Bit of a "click" when you hold it straight and push up, down, left, or right.

So this play is vertical and horizontal when holding on to the steering wheel? If so, it's possible there's a bushing which has disintegrated and needs replaced. I had to change this bushing in my '86 930 when I noticed vert and horiz movement of the steering wheel. Got the part here at Pelican.

Look up this part:
Steering Column Support Bushing, Self-Lubricating Nylon, 911/911 Turbo, (1974-89)
Part #: PEL-ML-STR

[Ian Comerford]

This is a long shot but in your fifth picture look at the ARB bush and one of the bolts holding it in place. It looks way too long. Could it be impacting upon the rack and its movement?

Ian

[Uwon]

Big front wheel spacers, too much caster and small steering wheel will do it.
Johan

[175K911]

So many things could be wrong. As others have said, if both front and read alignments are out of whack then many of the symptoms could be the result.

I’ll throw one other remote idea in. In your 5th pic, the gold oblong plate held in with two bolts is the cover for the rack adjusting hardware. If someone has overtightened the rack gear in an effort to get rid of some age related slop, it will make your steering very heavy.

With my widebody 911, I run 17x9 front wheels, either 255/40-17 Toyo R888S or Hoosier 245/40-17 r-compound tires, lots of negative camber and a 350mm wheel and the steering is very heavy maneuvering in and out of the garage, but feels and works great once on the track and at speed.

[GaryR]

Originally Posted by 175K911

I’ll throw one other remote idea in. In your 5th pic, the gold oblong plate held in with two bolts is the cover for the rack adjusting hardware. If someone has overtightened the rack gear in an effort to get rid of some age related slop, it will make your steering very heavy.

I noticed how nice the steering rack looked also, so assumed someone had messed with it. I would drop that and dissasemble to make sure everything was right and rebuild it to spec. If nothing else it eliminates it as an issue.

[wjdunham]

oops...

[wjdunham]

Definitely looks like the front end has been apart and put back together by someone who was not terribly concerned with the "details" - that long bolt certainly doesn't look good. Could be many small things adding up, good time to rebuild the front end and replace the rubber, upgrade to turbo tie rods if not already done, lube the steering rack and get a proper alignment. Well worth the weekend spent under the car. My guess would be the caster and possibly tie rod joints very worn as the likely issues.

Bill

[Edoyle]

The spacers are likely the issue contributing to a poor scrub radius. When the wheels are turned they are "rolling" as opposed to pivoting at the spindle location.

[adias]

Related question: I noticed that the steering linkage looks very dry. Is it a good idea to put some grease in it?

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by Tremelune

3) Play in the steering wheel - It's quite noticeable; all directions. Bit of a "click" when you hold it straight and push up, down, left, or right.

[2.7RS]

Obvious case of driving like a dump truck

[Bill Verburg]

I'm sure that there are other issues too, but the narrow wheels and extra thick front spacer add to any existing issues by enlarging the already large front scrub radius

A stock SC/Carrera w/ 7ET23.3 and 205/55 has a kingpin inclination 11° and a scrub radius of 52.4mm, this is already quite large and also what gives a 911 it's sensuous steering feel.

The 28mm spacer grow the s/r to 80.4

For perspective a stock 964 has a s/r of 0, a stock 993 has a s/r of -10mm


ABS cars need s/r 0 to neg
the larger the s/r the more effort it takes to turn the wheel and the more kickback and self centering. There are other suspension settings that also affect this.

[juanbenae]

Originally Posted by Edoyle

The spacers are likely the issue contributing to a poor scrub radius. When the wheels are turned they are "rolling" as opposed to pivoting at the spindle location.

that was one of my 1st thoughts. there is obviously a laundry list of things, but removing the spacers should be no cost and see if there is any improvement at all.

[scary driving]

I have, to a lesser extent, a similar problem. I don’t think the spacers are te only culprit in a non-centering steering wheel. My car is very well aligned, but the steering on center feel is vague. I have not messed with the caster, since I have no way to measue it effectively, but I think that could have a more drastic effect on what is happening on mine.

On your case, you should probably make a spring alignment rig with 2 tubes or sticks a little over the width of the car mounted on 4 jack stands with 2 strings running parallel to each other at equal distances from the car. Measure front of the wheel and rear of the wheel to see the toe in and toe out. Basically a homemade smart strings rig. I’m sure that will make things clearer as to what you need to do.