Chemists....Please look at this:

[Doug Zielke]

http://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/index.html

I know we have a few chemists/chemical engineers on the Board.
Please check out the website, and post your qualified comments.

PS: If the name John Fitch sounds familiar....yes it is he, (SCCA legend).

[Jim Sims]

A cat cracker and reformer in a can; who needs Texaco!
I'm not a chemist or ChemE (I'm only a lowly ME but we are taught about fuels, combustion and IC engines) but I've had enough chemistry to be skeptical. There is really not enough information on the web site to judge if it works or not but in the words of my father-in-law (who is a PhD chemist): "If it seems too good to be true it probably isn't." Cheers, Jim

[Doug Zielke]

Originally posted by Jim Sims
There is really not enough information on the web site to judge if it works or not ......

And that's the problem I have with the website. I guess they don't want to give away all their "secrets".

I'm hoping for a CEng. to chime in to opine if this is even in the realm of possibility.

[Milu]

Similarly in the realm of sounds too good to be true:


http://www.hydrodrive.8k.com/webnews.htm

http://www.hydrodrive.8k.com/PRESS%20RELEASE1.htm

[nostatic]

a couple of thoughts. First, the issue in engine combustion doesn't seem to be activatioin energy but rather dG (ie, there is enough energy to drive the reaction, but equillibrium isn't enough towards products for certain species). In this case a catalyst does nothing beneficial.

I'm not an inorganiker, but they are talking about a number of processes including scavenging of oxygen and hydrocarbon rearrangement. My anecdotal knowledge is that metal catalysts that can do difficult HC chemistry in general don't do well around oxygen or water. It seems to me that the "catalyst" would likely function as a scavenger (reagent) rather than assist a reaction.

But I'm a lapsed biochemist, so take it with a grain of salt. Metal catalysts can do some whacky chemistry, but in general the stranger the chemistry, the more ill behaved they are (my inorganic buddies often had fires in the lab).

you can't violate the laws of thermodynamics. Or in other words, there's no free lunch...

[pwd72s]

Remember the fuel line magnets? HA!

[Doug Zielke]

Originally posted by nostatic
a couple of thoughts. First, the issue in engine combustion doesn't seem to be activatioin energy ......

Thanks for your input, Todd.

If I have to dig out my old chemistry textbooks, I'll probably be even more confused!

[Milu]

There used to be a product called broquets (spelling?) that when placed in the fuel tank was supposed to act as a catalyst improving fuel quality. It dated back to the second world war when it was supposedly developed to improve the fuel quality used by the RAF. I last saw it appear in the UK as a solution for cars that needed leaded fuel when leaded fuel was taken of the market. I don't think any definitive tests were ever completed.
Snake oil? Probably.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Doug Zielke
Thanks for your input, Todd.

If I have to dig out my old chemistry textbooks, I'll probably be even more confused!

Probably, because most texts are pretty abysmal. It actually is fiarly straightforward, at least for a general understanding. For a chemical reaction (making and/or breaking bonds, and combustion qualifies), you have reactants and products. There is a free energy associated with the reactants and products, and the difference between these two values is dG. If the reaction is "downhill" (free energy of products less than reactants), the dG is negative (by convention) and considered "spontaneous". dG only tells you about the distribution of reactants and products at equillibrium....ie what is the extent of reaction. This value tells you nothing about the rate of the reation though...that depends on the activation energy, which involves the difference in energy between the reactant and the highest energy transition state (ie a bond in the process of being made and/or broken). Catalysts work by lowering this activation energy, either by lowering the energy of the transition state, raising the energy of the starting point, changing the mechanism, or some combination. This change however will not affect the equillibrium distribution...ie you won't get more proudcts than you would before, you'll just get them faster.

In general if you're in a situation where you have plenty of energy around (ie hi temp), you don't worry about catalysis. Of course most of the times you don't have unlimited energy, so a catalyst helps (and a catalyst can be as simple as protons, ie acid). For instance in your body, enzymes work as catalysts for chemical reactions, but you're asking these reactions to take place at 37C and neutral pH...not an easy task.

[sammyg2]

Hmmmm, color me skeptical.
I've spent 22 years playing around refining processes including HF alkylation units and Platinum reformimg units.

I SUPPOSE it's possible to design a platinum reforming system to optimize the octane of a fuel, but it would require an external source of hydrogen to pull it off. Plus a higher octane fuel does not necessarily translate into more horsepower unless the engine is suffering from too low of octane.
My take on this? Either these guys are so smart they have desicovered something that all inorganic chemists have missed for 100 years, or they are full of *****. They do not provide enough information on the web site to decide which is which.

Bottom line is, if they really have what they say they are blowing it as far as marketing. they could sell it to the API (American petroleum institute) for at least $100 million and then charge 5 cents per gallon royalties making them richer that bill gates.
Like I said, I'm doubtful.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

I believe Motorcycle Consumer News tested this and found it completely worthless. I'll try to look it up and confirm my fading memory...

(FYI, those of you that don't know, MCN is a fairly respected magazine that takes zero advertising dollars.)

[HarryD]

In short. PURE BUNK. This particular idea has been around for ages. I believe the oil refiners bought this up and keep it next to the 100 mpg carburetors. As others have noted, adding something to ambient temperature fuel and expecting a reaction is not going to happen. Otherwise, the huge investment that the refiners have made in Cat Crackers would be rendered useless and they would change to this process en-masse to get a better (cheaper) product.

Lastly, where is their testimonial from SAE?

Also, once the fuel in in the cylinder it will burn to CO2, water etc.

BTW - When I was in enginering school, the ME dept ordered many of the fuel saving gadgets from JC Whitney and put them all on a single car. Much to their surprise , they did NOT need to drain the excess fuel from the gas tank but instead found that they actually lowered the gas mileage and power.

[jwetering]

Hey Doug - I didn't read everything there but three things stood out to make this thing sound hokey - I quote from the website:

1) In gasoline The Fitch Fuel Catalyst converts light non-gasoline molecules into highly branched high-octane gasoline molecules

2) In diesel fuels the Fitch Fuel Catalyst helps break the undesirable highly branched long molecules and converts them into more desirable low octane long straight hydrocarbon chains.

3) once fuel leaves the refinery, it is subject to attack by oxygen, ozone, and microorganisms (bacteria yeast and mold) that grow in the fuel and alter it ingesting fuel molecules and expelling non-conforming molecules as by-products.

If I understand correctly, the magic product changes it's behavious to match the requirements of the type of engine, and is works by undoing the work of micro-organisms that attack your fuel.

Oh yeah - and the manufacturer claims the product is "..not an additive.." Oh, I see. you add it to your fuel, but don't call it an additive.

And it pays for itself in fuel savings....I'm guessing gasoline is still cheaper than this stuff.

[nostatic]

it's also a dessert topping...and a floor wax!

The only problem is you need to run it through the bass-o-matic before adding to the tank.

[red-beard]

Originally posted by nostatic
it's also a dessert topping...and a floor wax!

ROFL that was a good one!

In my old job, I had the "pleasure" of running thermodynamic cycle calculations on the lastest ways to make powerplants more effcient. They were all about as good as this stuff.

Even when they did do something, it was never free and usually there were better ways of doing it.

Put this next to the magnets that soften water and your Tornado.

James

[red-beard]

Why does this get me thinking about "Brown 25" ?

James

"And remember, at Uranus, things come out a little different."

[gary-o]

Originally posted by sammyg2
Hmmmm, color me skeptical.
I've spent 22 years playing around refining processes including HF alkylation units and Platinum reformimg units.

I SUPPOSE it's possible to design a platinum reforming system to optimize the octane of a fuel, but it would require an external source of hydrogen to pull it off. Plus a higher octane fuel does not necessarily translate into more horsepower unless the engine is suffering from too low of octane.
My take on this? Either these guys are so smart they have desicovered something that all inorganic chemists have missed for 100 years, or they are full of *****. They do not provide enough information on the web site to decide which is which.

Bottom line is, if they really have what they say they are blowing it as far as marketing. they could sell it to the API (American petroleum institute) for at least $100 million and then charge 5 cents per gallon royalties making them richer that bill gates.
Like I said, I'm doubtful.

Not to mention heating the gasoline to ~630 degrees F when combining the Hydrogen prior to flowing through the catalyst bed!
Sounds like snake oil, but I'm sure they'll get rich as the "hopefulls" line up to buy it.
Gary

[Trent P.]

Not to mention that it would change the taste of the gas, and if your car sat around in a garage, you wouldn't be able to sample some by mouth to make sure it was OK before you restarted it.

[HawgRyder]

My dad once came up with a similar idea....canned de-hydrated water.
Just add water to re-constitute!
Absolutely pure....no added ingrediants.
We thought it was at least as good as "canned Florida sunshine".
And I agree....these guys will get rich on the sucker trade....one born every minute....and their fathers bought the "Fish" carb....to get 200 MPG if I remember correctly.
Bob

[JTO]

Me Chemist. Me thinks this is dog doo. Need much energy to reform hydrocarbon, AND a catalyst.

In the immortal words of my Iranian friend, Ali; junks.

Troy