Blank canvas 911T, what powerplant would you choose?

[Guzubulu]

Hello everyone, I'm at a bit of a fork in the road, and am curious what everyone here would choose to do. I recently acquired my first Porsche, a 71 911T. It needs a fair amount of rust repair, and was purchased with no engine + trans. Originally, the owner said he did not have the original engine. I was okay with this, as I had planned to build a hotrod. It now turns out, he has the numbers matching case + crank, for $2500. I spent some time coming up with a rough parts list to make a complete engine, and it did not tally up to a pretty number (safe to say, it would far exceed just buying a complete 3.0/3.2). Building an engine from just a case and crank doesn't seem entirely feasible, or cost effective, at least for someone with no spare Porsche parts. I have a penchant for power, so I had my heart set on a bigger engine from the get-go.

I understand the market will tend to price numbers matching cars higher. I'm not sure if going the numbers matching route would mean making the rest of the car bone stock, or if some "minor" changes are acceptable (suspension, fiberglass parts, etc). I'm also unsure if the higher investment in the original engine would even give a positive return, especially since it's a T, not an E or S.

Which way would you go? Ground up 2.2, or a refreshed swap motor? Thank you for any insight!

[Hi_Fi_Guy]

This is an almost impossible question to answer as it depends on so many factors.

Your use and enjoyment: How do you plan to use the car? Do you like to drive fast or faster? Will the small of carbs and oil bother you? Lots of considerations. That last thing you want to do is spend the time and money to build a car you don't enjoy and wish you had done it differently.

Your budget & time: As you have already figured out, building even a stock-ish 2.2 from scratch can add up to more than the cost of a 3.0-3.2 very quickly. Likewise an engine swap may be faster than a rebuild (or not) so you will have to weigh the pros and cons of your time and budget and determine which areas you want to spend on.

Your concern about future values: There have been plenty of nicely restored T's sell for decent money and as many or more nicely done hot-rodded T's sell for as much or more as a restored car. On the other end of the spectrum diver and sub driver level will sell for much less. Unless you build & sell cars for a living it is probably foolish to attempt to predict future values. Stock build or hot-rod, if it is done to a high standard then someone will want it later. Unless you are doing all the labor yourself I can not imagine there being a "positive return" on any 911T restoration unless you got the car for free... and even then maybe not.

[Jeff Jagusch]

here is my $0.02, (I have a 1970 911T)
rebuild the original engine, while it probably will cost more than buying a 3.2 or whatever used engine you could buy, there is something to be said for having a rebuilt known engine
I would call Henry at Supertec on Monday I know he can set you up right!

[mepstein]

Buy the original engine, put it in storage and buy a good running 3.2. Have fun with the 3.2 and in a couple years, you will know what you will do with the car. Keep the 3.2, rebuild the original engine and sell the 3.2 or sell everything. Many people would kill for their original engine so don’t let it pass you buy.

[Coastr]

I agree for $2500 (or less, if you can) get original case.

Then put whatever engine in you want and can afford. If you want to build the other down the line, go for it. By then you’ll know what you did with the body.

IMO matching numbers is only a big deal when the car is near stock. Less so when it is a hotrod. Then it becomes more about matching engine to mod theme. A longhood with a 3.6 Efi goes great but loses some character and visual appeal. Same car with carbs or MFI is more desirable.

[Trackrash]

Here is your choice. Either restore completely to original stock Porsche standards or build a nice hotrod.

If you choose stock, you will either spend the rest of your life or two to three times the ultimate value of the car if you pay to have others do the work. Then you will sell it because you don't want to drive a perfect concourse car. BTW, unless the T is original and low mileage, it isn't going to bring top dollar anyway. And IMO matching numbers does not have a lot of meaning when it comes to old 911s, unless they are museum pieces.

Your best bet is to take your time to find a GOOD RUNNING engine and trans and install it. The 3,0 SCs and 3,2 Carrera motors are the best overall bang for the buck. However my 2,2 T motor was a lot of fun, so don't overlook any options.

You will have plenty of time to search while you tackle the rust and paint work.

Post some pictures. And good luck

[Matt Monson]

If you think $2500 too much for the matching case and crank you’re going to quickly decide this hobby may be too expensive for you.

That said build a 2.5 on the original case. You can find a 2.4 or 2.7 core for another few thousand bucks. Buy some cams and a set of forged pistons and build an engine. pMO carbs would round it out.

[911hutch]

What proof is the previous owner providing that verifies that his 1970 case is the case original to your chassis...a COA ? His "word"?

[silverc4s]

I have owned two early 911 T’s, both targas, but here’s my experience. First was a 1969 bone stock with Weber carbs and a 5 speed 901 trans. Loved when first purchased, but it became slower as I learned how to drive properly. Pulled engine and replaced with a 2.4 e fresh rebuild long block.
I used the intake and exhaust from the 2.0 liter engine, larger jets and venturis in carbs, and a 2 out sport muffler. Loved it!! Went like stink, low end torque appeared out of nowhere, top end seemed limited by aero suddenly, etc. etc. drove for many years and was quite happy, except for two factors, l
High fuel consumption (of course), and lots of retuning on Weber’s, always. Low compression, runs on any gas.

My second is a 1973 targa with a stock 1986 3.2 Motronic engine, and the 1973 7:31 915 transaxle. It was built to meet CA CARB regulation many years ago. I have modified by backdating exhaust to SSIs, removed top heat blower, and added a Steve Wong chip. Also added Rennshifter and Stomski shift coupler. Rebuild of all suspension components using Elephant parts where indicated, changed to Lindsey staggered 17 inch Fuchs with Michelin Pilot Sports...

Long story, but I totally love my 1973. I still drive it all the time, it’s stone reliable, gets 20mpg around town, almost 30 on the highway, and is very quick, loving twisty roads above all.

[Guzubulu]

Thank you all so much for the insightful replies. I guess the moral of the story is, execution and build quality is more important than engine choice. Can't go "wrong" with either engine setup. I personally put no stock in numbers matching cars, and really only care how it looks + drives (not to mention, how many are re-stamps). Buying the case and putting it on the shelf for the time being may be the best course of action. No chance of permanent regret down the road, if I decide to want to have the stock motor. Thankful to have access to such a great forum.

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

If you think $2500 too much for the matching case and crank you’re going to quickly decide this hobby may be too expensive for you.

That said build a 2.5 on the original case. You can find a 2.4 or 2.7 core for another few thousand bucks. Buy some cams and a set of forged pistons and build an engine. pMO carbs would round it out.

I do not think $2500 for the case + crank is too much. My concern was with piecing a motor together from scratch. Trust me, I'm off the deep end as far as car projects go! Your idea of buying a core motor is great, and if I end up using the case I'll do just that.

Originally Posted by 911hutch

What proof is the previous owner providing that verifies that his 1970 case is the case original to your chassis...a COA ? His "word"?

Currently, he has no proof. I'm going to submit for a heritage certificate. By my understanding, this would verify if the engine number is correct to the chassis.

[Macroni]

No matter what you do this is going to be an expensive endeavor. Rust repair, motor rebuild or purchase..... envision your final product and then set your budget and course... whatever motor you build will fit your needs unless your are building for a racetrack. Then shelve the whole car and buy a racer ..... they sell for pennies on the dollar.

[Robert Adams]

The attached will narrow the original engine # to the range for 1971T until you get the COA. however, you may not want a wait that long, COAs take more than a little while!
Hope this helps...good luck...ABSOLUTELY HAVE FUN!

[Robert Adams]

ops

[wildthing]

If it were me I’d put the largest that would fit with very little body mods.

[NYNick]

You've got some great insight. I'll add my 2 cents.

Buy the case as long as it matches and stick it in the corner. Trying to build a matching numbers T will cost you so much time and money and only get you a moderately performing engine, that it won't pay off and will take forever.

Concentrate on the body for now. You've got plenty of time to find a nice 3.0 or 3.2 to stick in that thing to go like hell later on!

An updated and refreshed suspension will make the car sing thereafter.

A nice looking longhood hot rod checks a lot of boxes for a lot people. Having the matching case in the corner just makes it sweeter.

GL. Don't keep track of your expenses! LOL

[Bill Verburg]

Keep in mind that each engine will have a suite of accompanying mods that are needed or at the very least desired

bigger engine often means bigger brakes stronger trans w/ different gearing, stiffer suspension bigger wheels, wider fenders etc. The engine can end up being a less significant part of the overall cost than it may seem at first.

[Carbster09]

As everyone else is throwing their 2 cents in: ... I bought a very stock, nice '71T. It needed nothing, so I took it to Cali and drove the hell out of it on a Targa ... ripped the clutch out, well I blame on my co-driver! Engine out, new clutch ... I need more suspension (stock it was a comfort model ), Added the best from Rebel racing, set up by TRE! Great suspension right, ran another Targa Cali. Now I need more motor! Oh, yeah I threw in some seats from GTS in "my" Tartan. ... keep it simple ... rebuild the 2.2 into a 2.8 ... then I bought a 7R case. I ran the numbers ... **** its cheaper to buy a SC and build it "right" .... its a slippery slope! Now there is a 3.5, twin plugged with ITBs, a 915 & RSR type brakes in the building process! The car itself, min mods to body and still Ivory White, sleeper?

Really the first question is how much money and time do you want to spend. Do you have people who can build and tune? A stockish 3.2 on PMOs might be an easy option.

[BK911]

Get the original case, put in on a shelf.
Finish body, brakes, suspension and steering.
Install 3.0 or 3.2.
Go vroom vroom.

[kent olsen]

Another opinion. My plan was to build a bullet proof engine and reduce weight especially in the rear if possible.

I originally had a stock 2.4L in my 72T. I traded for a 2.7L when the valve guides started leaking. I ran the 2.7L with webers for years. During that time, since I couldn't afford a bigger engine, more power, I went thru a weight reduction program bringing the empty weight from 2350 down to 2210. This was less expensive and gave me a better power to weight. From 2 batteries to 1, fiberglass hood and ducktail, lighter seats, 10 lb muffler vs stock 30 lbs, etc.

When I found the money to upgrade the engine I found the magnesium case was too expensive to modify for more hp and the only problem with the 3.0L engines was the cylinder head bolts. I found an 83 3.0L engine out of a wreck that only weighed a little more than the mag case. I picked the 83 even though the earlier engines had bigger valves because I had a camshaft in mind that had a lower torque peak while still making good top end power (227 lb@4800 and 245 HP @6800).

I built the engine myself with the help of Mike Bruns, when he worked with J&B racing in Florida. We put some extra into the engine based on race engines just for reliability and with over 10,000 miles on it so far it's been bullet proof.

I was able to sell the old engine but the total cost to me was around $12,000. With 244,000 miles on this old girl, which I've had for 22 years, it's been a great ride.

[70SWT]

Originally Posted by Robert Adams

...until you get the COA...

We've all heard of the errors on COAs - I wonder if the COA will be of any use, based on a recent experience.

I ordered a COA on a 911T project/parts car a couple of years ago for which I did not have the engine. So, I couldn't give them an engine number, which they ask you to enter when you apply - the whole reason for ordering the COA was that I wanted to know what the engine number was, among other details, as I considered whether the car was worth restoring.

The COA I received had no info listed for the engine number - see the excerpt below. For the MSRP, it also said "information not available." All I received that I didn't already know for sure was the build date, paint color code, interior color/type, and equipment options. I was pretty disappointed in it.

So, is it that:

1) Porsche knows the engine number, but if you can't confirm it in the car you have, they don't want to tell you? Or

2) They don't know, at least for some cars; and maybe even

3) They will list whatever you tell them when you apply! What if I had entered an engine number that was plausible, but made up?

In any event, I wouldn't count on the COA as the saving grace here.