Aftermarket Standalone ECU

[buster1015]

I've been driving my heavily modified 911 for a few years with less than ideal engine management. The car started as a 1987 Carrera and the first owner swapped that motor for a 3.3 to twin, turbo'ed and twin plugged it with and two MSD 6ALs. It had a custom chip to get the original Motronic ECU to run that new equipment, which worked at WOT but other conditions were less than ideal. I've since swapped out those aging turbos for a pair of Borg-Warner EFR turbos and built all new stainless exhaust.

Next step is to get a standalone ECU so I can really optimize this setup and get better overall drivability. I haven't made the final determination on which ECU to choose but some of the goals/requirements are:

Sequential Fuel Injection (I think this might require adding a cam pos sensor)
Lambda controllers
Data Logging
Ability to add e85 mapping for flex fuel capability
Water/Methanol control (I could use a separate controller)
Traction Control (ability to add down the road)

I had first looked at Motec (like the M600) but after upgrade costs the AEM Infinity units (506 or 708) seemed to be a better option. Alternatively, the MS3Pro Ultimate seems to have everything I'd need and happens to be the cheapest. I'm a bit suspicious that maybe the MS3Pro might have other shortcomings like maybe slower processer (MS3Pro is 50Mhz vs 200Mhz for the AEM Infinity) or less resolution in fuel/ignition maps. Those differences may not matter for a drag car but I'm not sure if there'd be a difference is smoothness in other conditions on the street.

I figure I can handle the install of whichever ecu I choose, but I'm gonna need someone to do the bulk of the dyno tuning. What experienced shops would people recommend in the southern California area for this sort of project? I'd be great if I could connect with someone before I start cutting wires and get myself in trouble

[winders]

I would recommend the MoTec M130.

David Ferguson at https://veracitydata.com in Paso Robles is a great tuner......

[kamaro]

I'm using Megasquirt in my single turbo 3.2, very pleased and easy/simple to tune. I was able to get my engine to idle smoothly in 20 minutes starting from a clean tune, my setup is less complicated than yours, but I would think MS3Pro would cover all your needs and then some.

[Cheshire Cat]

have a look at EMU ecu, emtron, haltech, link...
but if you won`t tune it yourself - it's gonna be the one your tuner likes

[jpnovak]

There are tons of threads on EFI conversions to 911s and 930s on this forum. I suggest you spend some time searching and reading.

Here are a few of my strongest opinions.

- Get an ECU system that your tuner knows how to setup. If that is yourself then you have more options. system familiarity will save you time and effort getting to your final goal of smooth running car. You don't want to be on the learning curve when paying the bill.

- Many modern ECUs have tons of features that you will not implement. So, why pay for those. Example, fast CPU clock speeds are required for system level CAN communications. Are you running transmission controllers, traction control, or other dynamic peripherals? My guess is no.

- spend some time to plan your system, identify what sensors are needed, identify what hardware changes (cam/crank pickups) and then match those to an ECU. Don't forget some extras like fuel pressure, oil pressure, flex fuel sensor (E85 is awesome for turbos), WMI injection, etc.

- More table resolution can mean more bins to tune and get right. Proper table scaling is key to maximizing results. Flat slopes between bins does not require a lot of resolution. But coming on boost where pressure (load) changes quickly, and adding more points to define that change in the curve is key to smoothness.

- spend time on quality wiring. Don't skimp on connectors. Ultimately, poor performance can often be tied back to poor installation practices. I don't think that is a primary concern based on your description but others reading this need to know.

- Pay attention to packaging. One thing many installations do not consider is ECU form factor. For example, the AEM Infinity has connectors on the top of the ECU. WTF? You can't install under a seat because there is no clearance for the wiring to exit. I prefer side mount connectors for ease of use. Not everyone wants the ECU sitting on top of a rear deck panel or heel kick panel with wires poking out.

For reference I have been playing around with EFI systems for about 15 years. There are a number of options.

[3rd_gear_Ted]

One of the reasons I'm reluctant to go with an ECU conversion is my lack of high level understanding of the software architecture and in turn the sequential functionality.

Just once I would like to see an Entity Relationship Drawing (ERD) of the functional modules, their interactions and the corresponding tables of a typical ECU.

To have this high level understanding is because the "Tuner" is going to tune remotely in most cases going forward.

I can tune a AC motor servo drive, but not a IC engine yet.

[Mahler9th]

I have a friend that recently went with an AEM here in Norcal. He is a highly trained and accomplished auto technician, and both very very intelligent and very very clever. He had a lot of problems and had to interact a lot with AEM. In the end there were some undocumented "issues." He was about to return the thing-- he was within a few hours of doing so when he stumbled across them.

Meanwhile, I know the folks at Veracity (have so for 20+ years) and there are professional motorsports people. Motec and Veracity would be a great choice for help. Another turbo/ECU/Porsche expert in their area is Jon Milledge. Jon is also a top level professional motorsports professional. And I know he knows David and Ellen at Veracity, and likely they have outfitted cars and tuned in collaboration. Milledge has also collaborated with Jerry Woods at JWE who has also worked extensively with Motec. I know that they have tuned on the JWE engine dyno with Motec.

Milledge, Jerry Woods, Dave and Ellen at Veracity and Motec. These are experts. Doesn't get any better.

Farther north are the folks at Reno Rennsport. Decades of Haltech and I think my now some Motec. They are at a similar level, but they do not have their own dyno. They have many, many Haltech customers in hot rods and in racing. One of the co-owners built my car and still does my engine work and tuning.

Now if you decide against Motec (which likely costs a bit more than Haltech, MS, AEM et cetera), I can still recommend Veracity as a service provider.

They are just top notch experts and people.

[lvporschepilot]

Motec M84 is where it's at, but I have to say AEM Infinity's software is easier to use. The M84 is just a little more pricey than an AEM Infinity 506 or 508, but it's worth it.

Another one I installed recently, not a Porsche application though, is Holly's Dominator ECU. I installed it on a 2v Ferrari 308 with ITBs and the self-tuning function was absolutely fantastic. Would like to try in a Porsche application one day.

[al lkosmal]

If you are not tuning this yourself......I would also recommend using the ECU that your tuner is familiar with and , in addition, familiarity with the application/features that you are wanting to implement. For example..... They may be experts tuning with the ECU, but not familiar with crank-fire, COPs, EDIS or whatever ignition configuration you are implementing....in that case, there will be a learning curve that you will be paying for.


regards,al

[winders]

The MoTec M130 is better than the MoTec M84. It works better with flex fuels and has a much faster ECU. It is better at traction control too. It's just more powerful and versatile ECU. Oh, the M130 supports knock control with dual knock sensors.

[turbobrat930]

Jamie's advice is SPOT ON!! My post on this would be exactly what he has typed. Wiring is one of the biggest issues that most people have (autozone butt connectors, and such will NOT cut the mustard)...
Second, is to get the ECU that your tuner is familiar with.
FYI, I run a Link G4+, Injector Dynamic injectors, CoP denso coils, sequential injection, twin plugged, 3.3L punched out to a 3.6L, GT2evo cams, 8.5 to 1 C/R, full bay I/C, E85, RarlyL8 equal length headers, Garrett GTX3584RS turbo, and a SLEW of other mods..... I did the setup, wiring, etc myself.... and I just recently went through and found a TON of issues and problems due to my install, and mile on the road.
I have over 40k miles on my engine since putting it all together, and is only recently at the standard that I wanted it at. No fault except for my own. I have learned a bunch in the last 7 years. I love my Link G4+, but there are several great options out there. There is also several shops that specialize in high end turbo builds/ stand alone systems. TurboKraft being one of them. Yes, I promote them every chance I get. There is a reason for that. They know their stuff!!!! If you want to send me an email, I could help answer any questions you may have ( I dont get on these forums much anymore.... I will try to he on here more now)
Brad

Originally Posted by jpnovak

There are tons of threads on EFI conversions to 911s and 930s on this forum. I suggest you spend some time searching and reading.

Here are a few of my strongest opinions.

- Get an ECU system that your tuner knows how to setup. If that is yourself then you have more options. system familiarity will save you time and effort getting to your final goal of smooth running car. You don't want to be on the learning curve when paying the bill.

- Many modern ECUs have tons of features that you will not implement. So, why pay for those. Example, fast CPU clock speeds are required for system level CAN communications. Are you running transmission controllers, traction control, or other dynamic peripherals? My guess is no.

- spend some time to plan your system, identify what sensors are needed, identify what hardware changes (cam/crank pickups) and then match those to an ECU. Don't forget some extras like fuel pressure, oil pressure, flex fuel sensor (E85 is awesome for turbos), WMI injection, etc.

- More table resolution can mean more bins to tune and get right. Proper table scaling is key to maximizing results. Flat slopes between bins does not require a lot of resolution. But coming on boost where pressure (load) changes quickly, and adding more points to define that change in the curve is key to smoothness.

- spend time on quality wiring. Don't skimp on connectors. Ultimately, poor performance can often be tied back to poor installation practices. I don't think that is a primary concern based on your description but others reading this need to know.

- Pay attention to packaging. One thing many installations do not consider is ECU form factor. For example, the AEM Infinity has connectors on the top of the ECU. WTF? You can't install under a seat because there is no clearance for the wiring to exit. I prefer side mount connectors for ease of use. Not everyone wants the ECU sitting on top of a rear deck panel or heel kick panel with wires poking out.

For reference I have been playing around with EFI systems for about 15 years. There are a number of options.

[trond]

just about to order a new ECu to give me sequential injection, because I want to try that. Current ECU is MS2extra which has served me well for some 9 years but I want to explore the merits of sequential and so I am leaning towards MS3X. However it has more functions and variables than i like/need, more cables than I can fit easily through the tunnel and is tall for the available space under passenger seat. positives are I am familiar with MS and the excellent user support I had from DIYAutotune. Any advice ? Except stick to batch. I am not going to listen to that

[spyerx]

My 71 is getting an m130, dual knock, dual lambda, dual coil on plug, all modern digital sensors, etc. not cheap. But, it’s a solid software platform with lots of support. Shop does tons of motec work...

[Peter M]

Jamie gave a great summary. However one thing I've learnt is that you need to plan our EXACTLY what you want the ECU to do BEFORE you spend any money.
Most do sequential, DBW etc etc now but be clear on:
Do you want cruise control?
Do you want to run water/methanol injection?
What level of data logging do you want?

I'm a happy Motec M130 GPA user BTW but if I had my time again I may have up specced a bit more.

https://porscheforum.com.au/topic/15418-my-carrera-32/

[Mr Beau]

Emtron KV8 is great value compared to Motec. I'd recommend it if it's not your first 'complex' ECU or have a good dealer nearby.

[Raceboy]

Excellent advice regarding finding the tuner who does it unless you can do it yourself.
Also there are things to consider like time required to tune the car as ECU's and tuners differ vastly in that. Some ECU's take more time to reach the goals, some less.

As for features, it is strongly adviseable to just make a list that you certainly need now and then think of few that might be needed at some point in the future.

[OSC911]

Originally Posted by winders

The MoTec M130 is better than the MoTec M84. It works better with flex fuels and has a much faster ECU. It is better at traction control too. It's just more powerful and versatile ECU. Oh, the M130 supports knock control with dual knock sensors.

Does the M130 have onboard lambda? I am sure the M84 does which is very handy.

[winders]

Originally Posted by OSC911

Does the M130 have onboard lambda? I am sure the M84 does which is very handy.

No. Even the more expensive M1 models that do have onboard lambda support narrow band sensors only. MoTec relies on CAN modules (in single or dual models for both Bosch and NTK sensors) for wideband support in the M1 series. Up to 32 lambda sensors are supported.

The M84 is quite limited compared to M130 or even the M800. The M84 does not offer knock control nor does it support drive by wire. The M130 has a much faster ECU which is important for the knock control which works on the individual cylinder level.

The M84 is a nice unit but it is old technology. So, if you are going to run an engine with crank and cam sensors, coil on plug, knock sensors, etc., the M1 family is most likely a better choice than any of the gold boxes.

[OSC911]

Thanks for the great explanation Winders. It gets pretty confusing on the Motec site. They are a great product though.