Does the '69 "S" still have the distinction of having the most expensive exhaust valves of any street Porsche?
-Chris

I originally urged Geoff to save the car... and then I saw the pictures.

It sure doesn't look like it's been run lately. Definitely left out in the weather...

This is an ebay car. No way of knowing when it was last run.

Just my 911 cents

OK I can't stand it anymore, so here goes. You are all right from your perspectives. I would love to buy this engine but only because I need a 2.0S to remain in stock class and as I have noted elsewhere these P&C's are hard to come by (I wouldn't hesitate to try this motor if I had appropriate beans at the moment) That being said, it isn't worth more than any other core motor if you're going to jug it, maybe less, and from what I'm told the 2.0 pump is different from the later pumps, difficult (read $) to convert. In short the world of the 69S is a small one, dear to those of us who love them, and just oddball, one year only crap to the rest of you. I love my car (especially now with the new Prototipo) and will address the shortcomings as they need arises. Just no monster turbo maxi motors...
thanks
Holder Trumbo

I didn't start this thread to make anyone upset and if I misrepresented the time the engine has been sitting then that is my fault. I do not want to run down the value of the seller's parts. As a potential buyer, though, I use this board to protect me and supplement the limited knowledge that I have and I think that there are some good perspectives here. As I understood, it has been a really long time since it ran and I remembered the figure of ten years from my conversations with the seller. the seller has posted here that this engine ran 18 months ago. I guess that it what we have to go on. You can see the wasps nests in the pictures so that part is accurate. I find 18 months hard to believe because of the fact that there is green mold on all the linkages and intakes and the exhaust is rusted out. In addition, no one who has heard it run is available for comment (dead or in another state) so I have volunteered to help the seller get it going so that he can hopefully get a better selling price. Looks like the bottom line on the value is going to be what the market will bear. I received a PM that said the heads were quite valuable to the 5 or 10 people in the world who need 2.0 S heads and the magnesium throttle bodies can be bored out for larger applications so I also think $500 is low if you are going to part it out but only to part it or if you need an early S engine for racing rules. However, I appreciate Wayne's perspective that a 911 engine is a 911 engine and it will require $$$$ to make sure that it runs optimally. Looks like I could get 30 more horses on my engine for less than the $3500 asking price. I sold a 2.4 T engine with Webers for $1500 a few years ago with the 915. I knew nothing about the engine's history other than the fact that I had driven the car several times and it was owned by the owner of a German auto shop. Even though it didn't knock or smoke, it needed a complete overhaul when the new owner started tearing it down. The cams were worn and the engine was obviously tired. Not sure what that tells us, but he sold it for parts and recouped his $1500. Even at $1500, it wasn't worth bringing back.

Rich
If you need help getting her running I'll be more than wiling to give you a hand. (after my car is on the road, hopefully late this weekend or early next week)

well let try to fire it up and see what mood the Porsche gods are in

Just a couple of cautions ducati, If I had fired my engine up right away I would have burnt it up in seconds from the mice's nest. What does the cooling fins look like? Do all of the systems seem to be in order? (MFI pump belt, fan belt, fan. How old is the gas in there? Is it varnish?. Does it turn over by hand?

Each of these and more had to be addressed on my MFI engine and it had been sitting for a similar length of time.

Tim,

You raise good points and we'll make sure that the oil is changed, we have fresh gas and all of the bases are covered (read: several fire extinguishers)! We'll give you a call. I'm headed to Senegal today but I'll be back in a week or so. In the meantime, ducati, can start with the maintenance basics (oil and filter change, check the fuel lines, clear out the insects, etc). I'm going to be optimistic based on legendary Porsche quality and bet that it fires up. Any suggestions for freeing up the MFI rack? I know how to bleed and adjust diesel injection lines but the internals are a mystery. Sounds like a fun day!

I'm not going to post any more opinions on whether the car should be saved or not. With respect only to the engine, I don't think getting it to run is going to really prove anything one way or another. Even good compression or leakdown figures leave unknowns about the conditions of gaskets and seals, cam profile, bearing wear, cam drive gear runout, MFI pump and throttle body condition, flywheel condition, mag case still in spec, rodent nests on the cylinders. There is most definitely water in the case and cylinders after all this time. Sold as a single brick, I'd pay between 500-1000. Geoff, I assumed when we talked about you getting the big bucks out of that engine, you knew you'd have to get it part by part.

I just don't get this thread. Buying a tired 2.0S motor for an "upgrade"? They're fun motors, sure, I've watched plenty go around the track. But they're peaky and anemic too, and dollar for dollar you'd be better served with a large displacement motor if you're after more fun. You say you want an upgrade from your "E" motor...many owners like the E more than the S for street driving.

BTW, anyone willing to pay hundreds of dollars for an engine shroud, give me a call.

2.0S is perfect for stock racing where 2.0 is required, or for applications where power to weight ratio is key (airplaines, tight autoX course?) 2.0 power to weight is among the highest.

My experience is that it always surprises me when I drive the S how much power that little thing puts out. Very impressive for a 2.0. That being said, if I were going to spend the time and effort to rebuild a motor with no "originality" concerns -- a 2.7 RS clone would be a no-brainer, and it is hard (not impossible) to get there from a 2.0 S engine.

Ive some experience here having owned 3 '69 "S" cars over the past 4 years and parted one of them out.

The 2.0 S engine, if its complete and original and has the original MFI is worth good money. Wayne is wrong on this though I understand where he is coming from.

The 2.0 S engine with MFI was only made 1 year. That also happens to be the only year a 2.0 car was made that was long wheelbase. IT also happens that not that many S cars were built in 1969. Why does all this seemingly worthless trivia mean anything?

It doesnt unless your one of the many guys who wants to race and win in a 2.0 vintage class. In that event... a '69 911S is the hot ticket. If its stock class racing or one of the vintage groups that requires an original period correct engine, then 2.0 S engine is your ticket.

The MFI cam, the heads and the P/C's are all worth good $$$ from those engines. I would think a complete engine that turns should be worth $2,500 to $3000. Here is how I know:

I had one. A complete non-running 2.0 MFI core engine. Joe Cogbill told me it was worth nothing and convinced me to trade it to him for some other parts I needed that were worth about $500. I didnt feel good about the deal, and wanted to back out buy Joe basically wouldnt let me. A week later an ad I had mailed in that included the engine came out... and my phone started ringing. The callers were all vintage racing people who needed a '69 2.0 S engine with MFI.... I was offered $2500 before even getting the chance to explain the engine was gone.

Anyhow, thats my experience. May not be rational and I would agree that I would rather have a 2.7RS or 2.4S engine in my 911 than a 2.0S..... but then again im not racing in such a class. I currently have a '69 911S with a 2.7RS MFI engine in it and I love it. I also have the original 2.0 S MFI engine on a stand and its NOT for sale. :)

Hmm, these additional posts have triggered a memory that I had forgotten about (too much stuff in this head).

My statements about the core motor hold true for just about any core motor. Yes, the 2.0L MFI pump was a one year pump, but that also limits the demand. I just got off the phone with my technical editor (of the book), and he mentioned that he had two of them instock, good running pumps for $400 each. I would probably value a non-running pump at less than that then.

As I said originally, good core magnesium motors are worth about $500-$1000 "TO ME." I don't have a '69S car, and if I did have one without an engine, I would probably pay more. Just like people looking to upgrade to a 3.0L would prefer an SC 3.0 to a Euro Carrera. Not so for me, since I would be running it with a 901. It all depends upon perspective.

That said, the thing I forgot about is the 2.0S heads, which are about the only thing on a core engine that is really worth big bucks. The 2.0 heads (they have a casting stamp that says "308") are the proper specs, ports and sizes for the HSR vintage racing classes. These heads are why these guys were calling - they are difficult to find. Other heads don't need any modifications to run in this class. As a result, the core heads are worth about $1000 alone. I originally forgot about this.

Needless to say, this 69S engine is better suited for someone looking specifically for these parts to do vintage racing. I wouldn't waste your $$$ on purchasing somewhat rare parts that you don't need. Unless you're racing in the HSR class, there's no need to pay more.

Once again, there are many different views on this situation. I was just recently hired to be an expert witness in a trial case involving some 917 engines. You would normally think that a 917 engine would be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, *but*, there really isn't much of a market for them, since the demand is so low.

Just food for thought...

-Wayne

wayne,
just a question. Does the high demand for 2.0 heads apply to just the 2.0S heads? Or do they apply to all 2.0 heads?

Wayne; you must of been an engineer and not an economist! ;) It only takes 2 (buyers or sellers) to make a market. If there is one engine and 2 buyers, the value of those 917 motors could be very high, especially when you consider the alternatives (build one from scratch, buy one from Porsche, replace it with a SBV8). The value has nothing to do with the size of the market, only the proportion of buyers to sellers and prices of suitable substitutes.

In the case of '69 2.0S engines the analysis looks like this:

# of engines: < 2106 +/- (less scrapped units and units outside NA)
# of potential buyers: How many guys are (or want to be...) racing 2.0's in HSR, VSCC, PCA, POC, SCCA, CASC, etc. (est. 10? 20? 100? 200?)
# of Substitutes? 0 All of the other 2.0's have smaller valves and/or smaller ports. Alternatively it could be the purchase price of non-S 2.0 ($1000 +/-) + the costs of porting the heads and buying the larger valves, upgrading the cams, lightweight clutch assembly, nitrided rods, etc.

This would all seem to suggest a value in the $,000's rather then $00's. This is the type (although not the thoroughness) of analysis which is generally used in courts.

What's your number? I need a red "S" shroud for a '69. I'm only interested in one with the proper ductwork and holes for the MFI. PM me if you have one for sale. I would rather pay for something and spend my time driving than hours online searching for parts that aren't readily available.

Like someone above said, it only takes two buyers to make a market.

My point of view was not to destroy a limited quantity item to make it into an engine that could have a much more common and cheaper starting point.
To free the rack you can remove the plastic cover from the drive end of the rack and insert a 6mm bolt (if I remember the size correctly) and gently pull it. On a properly running car it will snap back into place. If it is not free you'll have problems. Maybe a good time to have a copy of Check, Measure, Adjust lying around.

Gee, I was wondering what a real 69S motor and trans were worth. Both completely rebuilt to a very high standard with ZERO miles on them. Rebuilt MFI pump by Gus at Pacific, rebuilt throttle bodies by Eurometrix, all new intake and exhaust valves (very expensive for real 69S sodium filled valves,) all machine work done by Ollies, etc etc. I have about $10,000 into the motor and trans in just the rebuilds alone.

These were from a numbers matching 69S that I was going to restore. I pulled the motor and trans out and gave them to a reputable local Porsche shop to rebuild. I then proceeded to strip the car down to the shell. As I got further and further, I found a decent amount of rust. As I discovered rust, I called Restoration Design and ordered the replacement metal I was going to need, back floor half, jack receivers and plates, and also found a NOS factory hood to replace the rusted one on this car. I have completely run out of steam on this project because I have a 3 year old son and a 6 month old daughter and not enough time to devote to this car. Anyone want a project that is partially restored, but will need a decent amount of cutting and welding and body prep before paint?

I would like this early 911S to be saved from the scrapyard, but I am not going to be the one to do it. If no one wants this project, I am going to just part it out and another real 1969 911S bites the dust. I am not going to give it away as I have $18k into it already, but I am only looking for a little over half of that for the complete project, and it is complete. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/69S motor.JPG http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/69S motor2.JPG http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/69S motor3.JPG http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/69S trans.JPG

That looks like a '70-'71 911 transaxle rather then a <'70 901 transaxle. Is that the original transaxle?

That is one pretty looking drivetrain though!

WOW!

wow indeed, i have to change my boxers again today