Recaro Pole Position '87 Carrera install best practices? Southbound Trimmers mounts?
 

Greetings all,

I just ordered a pair of Recaro ABE Pole Positions, from Gert Carnewal, for install into my '87 911 M491. While I adore the factory sport seats that are currently fitted, I'm looking forward to the more purposeful Pole Positions and the accompanying weight savings.

What I am not looking forward to is the seat and seat belt receptacle mounting trial and error. I have searched here and Rennlist and have not found definitive best practices for mounting Pole Positions in a late G Body. If anything, I've seen a lot of trials and tribulations (i.e. if Bill Verbug found Pole Position install challenging, including the Brey Krause option, that doesn't bode well).

Further exacerbating my install is that at 6' 2" tall, and long of torso, I would like to maximize headroom as much as practicable (my kingdom for a sunroof delete!!!). I'd like to maintain slider adjustability if at all possible, but I'll mount the driver's seat directly to the floor if that's the only option.

Gert suggests the aluminum Recaro side mounts and Recaro sliders, but I'm concerned about headroom. For the seatbelt receptacle he's suggesting the 964 RS bracket that mounts between the side mount brackets and sliders (raising the height of the seat further still).

One option that I have seen mentioned are the Southbound Trimmers side mounts. https://www.southboundtrimmers.com/ Supposedly they mount the seat lower than the Recaro side mount. Can anyone with firsthand experience opine? Unfortunately, they won't ship to the USA, but I can work around that if their side mounts are, in fact, the right solution for my needs.

Any and all help, or tips & tricks, from the Pelican collective would be HUGELY appreciated.

The car is being built as a mildly wife-unfriendly M491 "Club Sport" hot rod streetcar...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1590238570.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1590238570.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1590238570.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1590238570.jpg

The Southbound side mounts are an elegant solution/alternative to the traditional Recaro al. side mounts w/ the RS hardpoints. The Southbound emulate current factory practice of mounting the tunnel side 3 point hardpoint on the side mount rather than under it ala RS.

For track use I'd still want the harnesses to be bolted directly to the chassis

The Southbound side mounts will allow the seat to be mounted 4mm lower because the thickness of the RS mounting tab and associated leveling washers is eliminated.

I test fit my ABE with aluminum Recaro side mounts, and Recaro sliders in my 75. They sit pretty high. For my project 77 I’ll be cutting the rails in the chassis and moving them back and down 2-3 inches. I’m 6’6” but i also have done a sunroof delete and the headroom is at zero. With my other modified turbo style seats I have like 6” of headroom. The Recaros sit really high and close for tall people.

Nice photos !!

I can’t help with your seats , but I can say I used southbound trimmers around 20 years ago and Had no issues .

Excellent! Thank you!

Anyone have a pair of Southbound side mounts for sale?

Precisely as I feared. Ugh!

The Sportster CS seats are an amazing option and bolt right up to the factory sliders / rails, but they aren't what I'm going for and they weigh 2X the Pole Positions.

Did I mention I don't like sunroofs?! 🤬

Thanks. Ted7 is THE MAN!...
https://www.instagram.com/p/B3IH1mtAHcE/?igshid=b7184b5yrgjh

Gettin' our dyno ON post 3.4 build...
https://www.instagram.com/p/CAc9qxyFNC0/?igshid=1briqgyz4yw27

I used the planted side mounts. They are adjustable and can get the pole position rear part (where your @rse sits in) of it flush with the recaro sliders to get you as low as possible without having to direct mount into the tub. The front part has a few slots so you can adjust the seat rake too.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...933b834171.jpg

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Thank you.

So your pic is: Planted side mounts and Recaro slider? What seat belt receptacle provision?

I had a PP mounted using brey krause side mounts on recaro sliders in a 964 - install was pretty straight forward. I used RS mounting tab w leveling washers to secure the receptacle.

I sat lower with this setup than with recaro side mounts. I think the bk sides mounts were R-9062

I've the Southbound side mounts on my SPG's bolted to the factory sliders. Works great.

https://scontent.fyhz1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...f4&oe=5EF676C7

Which factory sliders? Those look like the Recaro sliders?

Hi,

Yes, "standard" planted side mounts. Notice they are perpendicular to the floor. The ones that curve in are for the spg (narrower recaros) and the ones that curve out are for the spg xl (wider recaros) as a FYI.

They are mounted to standard recaro sliders.

The seat belt buckle bracket is a 928/964 part. You sandwich it between the slider and the side mount. Also need some thick washers to make the sides level one all four corners since that bracket adds a space between the slider and side mount. There is a great seat install thread I learned all of this here...

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Epelicanparts%2Eco m%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D451099&share_tid=451099 &share_fid=844&share_type=t&link_source=app



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Seats, side mounts and Recaro sliders have arrived! They're A-mazing! Now, I just need to figure out the best way to mount them.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1601994532.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1601994532.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1601994532.jpg

Last night's test rig...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1601994532.jpg

Fantastic! Can't wait to see these in that blue beauty!

I mounted up the passenger side Pole Position Classic and, as expected... it's AWESOME!

Looks killer, feels GREAT and I gained some headroom, which is a *BIG* plus...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605200698.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605200698.jpg

Best of all, you get to drop ~46 lbs for the pair vs. the late sport seats...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605201001.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605201001.jpg


I need to source black hardware and I'd like to have the aluminum side brackets black anodized (or perhaps Cerakoted).

I do not like the idea of mounting the 964 Carrera RS inboard seatbelt anchor (964 521 065 00) between the aluminum bracket & slider. I know this is standard operating procedure, but I don't like the idea of raising the seats even 3mm.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605201378.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605201693.jpg

So, I'm contemplating drilling a 16mm hole in the side of the aluminum bracket and mounting the anchor from the top / inside (vs. between the bracket and slider on the outside). Something along these lines...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605201630.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605201693.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605201693.jpg

Then drill two new holes on the bottom of the anchor (one for an M8 fastener and one for an M6 fastener) to line up with the existing M8 & M6 holes in both the aluminum bracket and steel sliders.

Finally, I just finished up the rear bumperette delete / Euro crush tube swap, and M&K Active Exhaust pre-muffler & 1 in/out install. All of that, combined with the Pole Positions, will net a 70 pound weight savings.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605202388.jpg

You can do that or Just buy the Southbound trimmers and avoid all the work, up to you

Here are some pics of the Southbound mount



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605230107.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605230107.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605230107.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605230107.jpg

Southbound Trimmers mount is steel, correct?

Do you have a part number?

yes,I believe they are steel but don't know for sure, I used the regular RS belt mounts and aluminum Recaro sides, but that is what you want if you are bolting the belt to it

You need to contact them

Those seats look great.
So do the stock sport seats but I get it. Those should be able to fund this entire project, no?

Makes sense, thx.

For the ABEs, I assume I want this seatbelt buckle receptacle...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605295762.jpg

...inside the seat bolster (versus outside)? Like this...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605295895.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605295895.jpg

If so, I doubt the above pictured rigid 10" long receptacle is the correct piece as, once mounted to the Carrera RS anchor, I doubt it would make the bend through the opening and into the inside of the seat bolster. I suppose a non-rigid version is what I need. If so, anybody have a part number?

If not, am I thinking about it incorrectly and should the receptacle be outboard?...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605296082.jpg

You really can't go wrong with either. Although, I'm kinda over the starkness of all-black interiors. I ordered some additional Pepita material from Recaro and I'm having a mat made to toss atop the rear searbacks (when they're folded down). That should tastefully spruce up what was an all-black interior.

It's a shame the late model sport seats aren't full manual, they'd really be perfect then. Random thought: one power sport seat weighs more than four Fuchs Evolution 9x16s!!!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605296829.jpg

And yeah, selling the sport seats would largely defray the cost of the Pole Positions.

I'd do this

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605295895.jpg

Mine is similar
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605297047.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605297892.JPG
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605297892.JPG
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605297892.JPG

Frank - the seats look great.

I also used Bill's threads to help with my install. I went with Cobra Suzuka seats, which I have never seen in an air-cooled 911. The install was a challenge as the thigh bolster on those seats is much higher than most.

You can get all the hardware on McMaster - https://www.mcmaster.com/

At least on the Speedsters, the receptacle went outside the seat and not through the slot. The length of yours looks about right as they should come up to about the edge of the seat.
They made several versions of it depending on which seat it came with. Those look like they were original sport seat receptacles.

Nice! I also followed bills seat diy and they are spot on. I ended up with planted sides for mine and they worked great to get the seat as low as possible. I remember the other brackets were slightly higher.

As for that 964seat belt tunnel bracket, if memory serves me correctly, that extra 3mm space was needed for the slider U handle to "disengage" the sliders. At first I had 6 point harness and skipped using that tunnel bracket and couldn't get the sliders to move once in the car. It was not until I put some thick grade 8 washers thst were about the thickness of the tunnel bracket between the sliders and the sides did the sliders work correctly with the slider U handle.

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Thanks for the responses gents!

Yes, those are the sport seat receptacles. Are the comfort seat seat receptacles different? If so, I'll climb into my attic to retrieve mine and give it a shot.

Jae Lee suggested I try using the rear seat belt receptacle on for size. That could be an interesting option.



My passenger seat is installed with the Recaro sliders and aluminum side brackets, no 964 inboard seatbelt anchor yet. The seat slides fore / aft as intended.

I may just go with the standard 964 inboard seatbelt anchor install for now, until I can get my hands on some of the other mounts for A/B/C/etc testing. Although, the two M8 holes in the 964 inboard seatbelt anchor do not line up with the M8 & M6 holes in the aluminum side brackets / steel seat rails, so you either have to drill the anchor or the bracket/rail to get it to work. Ugh.

Part of my point is that it should probably be that long as you want it to be close to the edge of the seat like they designed it which is probably to have the correct geometry?? Not sure.
Anyway, the non sport seat option is shorter. Below is a picture of how that factory wanted them positioned. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605460980.JPG

Well, the vertical angle / geometry is dictated by the mounting point(s) of the belt, not the length of the receptacle. In terms of inboard vs. outboard / horizontal geometry, given that the ideal is to wear the lap belt low & tight, inboard receptacle would be optimal for me. Unless... one is of sufficient enough girth that their hips extend above the plane of the side bolster hip points such that the lap portion of the belt is "low & tight* even when the belt is routed over the top of the side bolster.

That's what I used, sans the plastic sheath

inside or out depends on the angle of the connection, the higher the bolster the less favorable that angle becomes, you want the angle of the connection to be 0

Another point is that not all receptacles are compatible, I tried some from a 997 that were incompatible w/ my 993 ones, front and rear on a 993 are compatible

Are you politely saying a lard ass? Just kidding. You are correct as that announcement is made before every takeoff- keep your belt low and tight about you. The factory had another issue to deal with on the 964's and that was the console and needing to get the receptacle up where you can reach it. Even being less than "Dumbo" sized, it would be physically impossible for me to get in the factory Speedster seat with the receptacle protruding through the slot which is I guess why Recaro came out with the widebody version.

Who me? I'm not saying a thing! ;-)...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605476914.JPG

I may source a spare set of rear receptacle assemblies and, if need be, have HMS Motorsport* sew custom length webbing between the mounting eye and the actual receptacle / release itself. The custom length and the non-rigid webbing should allow me to place the receptacle / release anywhere I want. Hmmmm, I'm liking the sound of that.

*HMS Motorsport has made custom length Schroth harness lap belts for me in the past.

So I checked my seats today and noticed the planted sides stick over the width of the recaro sliders so it looks like the need for the 3mm washers between the slider and sides was specific using the planted sides.

I hear you about the tunnel side buckles. I tried using the long sport seat buckles and they were sort of a pain to be outside the bucket. I am interested how your project goes with the rear buckles. I too got some rear ones and like you said eventually cut the plastic sheathing and see if I can put them through the factory lap belt cut outs.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...b9d93ab809.jpg

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Those seats are sex. I love them. I have factory sport seats in both my cars, but if I ever decide to change, this is what I am doing.

I love the factory sport seats too. I really do.

I have, no, wait... *had* them in both of my cars too! Then the sex happened.

The '88 491 cab is 60k miles, original paint, yadda, yadda, yadda, so I leave it alone mostly (Web 20/21 cams by 2nd owner, stealth pre-muffler, Steve Wong tune, Solid State DME relay, Classic White gauge LEDs, manual top conversion, Jae Lee sorted ERP / Elephant / Bilstein suspension). It pulls and drives like no stock looking G Body cab that I've encountered.
https://amoroso.smugmug.com/1988-Porsche-911-M491-M470-Poi/1988-Porsche-911-M491-M470


The '87 coupe is a repaint, 105k miles, so it gets more overtly optimized. Most of the mods are subtle / invisible to 99% of folks out there, so the Pole Positions will be the most overt departure.

She's down to 2,856 lbs now and I'd LOVE to get her to 2,775 lbs., But that's not in the cards short of a sunroof delete AND Classic Retrofit AC system. Alas, neither are in the cards.

I've never installed or owned fixed back seats, but have read some set the rail connections/side supports so that the closest to the steering wheel slide setting is the one they want, and every time they get out of the car they slide the seat all the way back to save on seat wear (important with perlon/velour cloth seats) and also ease of entry exit reasons in the case of non-removable steering wheel.

In such a situation I'd imagine one cannot set the tunnel side belt though side opening if tunnel mounted. Inside belt would have to be rail slide/side bracket mounted or it would be sliding in and out of the side hole with the sliding movement of the seat.

If anything I have wrote based on what my understanding of posts is incorrect, please feel free to correct.


Also posting this diagram as to remind myself what a bolster is.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1605793732.jpg

The seats are in. I haven't finalized the mounting-up as of yet, but here's what they look like at the moment...

Also, I have a rear mat being made from matching Pepita that will sit atop the rear seatbacks (when they're folded down) to carry the theme to the rear.

The OE sport seat seatbelt receptacle is too long. Per Jae and Bill's suggestions, I went ahead and used the OE rear receptacle and it works. It's not optimal, but it is serviceable. I can route the seatbelt buckle through the inboard bolster opening and engage the receptacle, but it is awkward / a two handed operation. Then, unfastening the belt is tricky too based on where this places the release. You can also route the belt / buckle over the inner bolster to engage the receptacle and this method is quicker / less awkward.

I have a message out to HMS Motorsport to see if they'll shorten the OE rear receptacle webbing for me. This custom solution may prove the most efficacious.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1606112369.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1606112369.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1606112369.jpg

Here you can see the rear receptacle mounted to the 964 Carrera RS anchor (which is itself sandwiched between the aluminum side bracket and the steel slider in this pic). In addition to shortening the webbing on the rear receptacle, I would like to find the proper combination of spring / wavy washers and mounting bolts such that the entire receptacle will remain upright (like the factory front receptacles)...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1606112732.jpg

what company did you buy the Recaro's from...????
I can't find someone who I can get any straight answers from
help , thanks anthony

You can try...
Christopher "Chops" Smith
chris@g-werke.com
Griffin Motorwerke, Inc.
(510) 524-7447
www.g-werke.com
... domestically.

I went with Gert at Carnewal - Car parts and accesories though as he was the only one that had any answers back in April when I originally inquired.

Ok, I chatted with HMS Motorsport and they won't do custom length webbing on anything that's not a Scroth piece. Ugh. I get it tho.

So, I feel as if I either want the inboard seatbelt receptacle assembly (receptacle + webbing + mounting tab) 1) a bit shorter, such that the seatbelt buckle engages the receptacle below the side bolster opening (regardless of whether I route the belt over or through the side bolster), or 2) a bit longer, such that the receptacle is properly placed inside the side bolster and the sestbelt is always routed to the inside. Any suggestions?

Also, per the below inboard / through the bolster routing, the release button being situated on top of the receptacle itself is problematic (with the receptacle assembly at its current length). Not sure what to do about that as it will depend on where the receptacle itself eventually ends up.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1606171314.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1606171410.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1606171410.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1606171410.jpg

You should be able to get an upholstery shop to shorten and stitch it up for you.