69 911 handling/steering question

[robertmark]

So I'm new to the early 911's. Only had the car on the road for maybe the tenth time when I had to swerve abruptly left, then right to avoid hitting something in the road. The car felt loose so I experimented at about 50 mph moving the steering wheel quickly between say 11 and 1 o'clock. You can feel the body of the car rolling , as I would call it. When I did the same thing in my 89 911, it just darts in the direction you point it, and you don't feel this rolling/bobbing effect. Is this normal for an early 911, to have this effect I'm experiencing? I don't know if I need to check something on the car, or if this is just the way the earlier cars handle. Thanks!!

[spyerx]

Pic of the car?
These aren’t quite as stable feeling as the later cars but shouldn’t feel unsafe.
A few things can affect this
Tire profile
Tire age
Alignment
Ride height
Worn shocks
Worn bushings
Worn steering tie rods.
No sway bars installed

If the car is new to you have all the rubber inspected and alignment checked.

[robertmark]

Originally Posted by spyerx

Pic of the car?
These aren’t quite as stable feeling as the later cars but shouldn’t feel unsafe.
A few things can affect this
Tire profile
Tire age
Alignment
Ride height
Worn shocks
Worn bushings
Worn steering tie rods.
No sway bars installed

If the car is new to you have all the rubber inspected and alignment checked.

Car has no sway bars. Car was mechanically sorted after sitting 41 years. Tires and bushings and shocks and alignment are all good. Is it most likely the lack of sway bars?
Thanks again!!

[wayner]

Does it brake in a straight line?
if so that eliminates some (not all) of the bushing issues and front torsion bar attachment point corrosion issues

[robertmark]

Car drives and brakes in a straight line. No issues whatsoever. Only when doing the quick steering did it feel loose/wobbly. If wobbly is a word.

[lsf911]

I can't speak to the wobble you are feeling but I do have a 68 and an 83. There is no comparison in handling. The 83 performs much better. The 68 has been restored but does not have sway bars. The geometry is also quite different which translates to a totally different feel.

[robertmark]

It’s probably just a matter of technology advances. My 89 doesn’t do this. I think when car shows get going again, I need to catch a ride in another early 911 to compare.

[spyerx]

Ok. I wanted to see the ride height. Looks ok.

The no sways will do it. It’s likely what you feel if your bushings and shocks and tires are good.

When i got my 71. It was all fresh. No sways. Felt like a wet noodle compared to my 89. But man that amazing light steering feel. I promptly completely redid the suspension with sways (adjustable rear spring plates, sways, new digressive dampers, uprated torsions bars, turbo toe rods, etc) along with a full alignment and setup, Pirelli cn36 tires and lower ride height. Drives like a little badass now and hangs with the later cars in the canyons.

Whatever you do don’t go too far! You don’t want it to feel like a later car. I feel like i nailed the balance with mine. It drives really really good.

Before and after

[RWebb]

how old are the susp. bushings?

good may not mean what you think...

same for engine & trans. mounts?

shocks?

[robertmark]

Originally Posted by spyerx

Ok. I wanted to see the ride height. Looks ok.

The no sways will do it. It’s likely what you feel if your bushings and shocks and tires are good.

When i got my 71. It was all fresh. No sways. Felt like a wet noodle compared to my 89. But man that amazing light steering feel. I promptly completely redid the suspension with sways (adjustable rear spring plates, sways, new digressive dampers, uprated torsions bars, turbo toe rods, etc) along with a full alignment and setup, Pirelli cn36 tires and lower ride height. Drives like a little badass now and hangs with the later cars in the canyons.

Whatever you do don’t go too far! You don’t want it to feel like a later car. I feel like i nailed the balance with mine. It drives really really good.

Before and after

Your car looks freakin awesome. I think I’m comparing old technology to new. Since my car is a one owner survivor, I don’t want to do all the upgrades as I want to keep it stock. I just won’t be pushing it too far. Thanks for your feedback.

[robertmark]

Originally Posted by RWebb

how old are the susp. bushings?

good may not mean what you think...

same for engine & trans. mounts?

shocks?

All are new and part of the mechanical restoration. I’m looking forward to a ride in somebody’s stock t,e, or s. Thanks

[spyerx]

Thanks. That’s the struggle and with mine i kept the chassis mods period correct and in line with a firmer more sporting feel vs making it drive like a later car.

One easy and not too $ upgrade assuming you have the mount points on your a arms is the front sway. The rears require welding the factory mount points on. I think a front sway bar will help a lot with the lean.

Of course you could just learn to embrace it and let that back end swing around and slide throwing It through corners :-) just stay on the gas!

Enjoy the early car they are a lot of fun and i love the different feel and character they have.

[john walker's workshop]

Tires with soft sidewalls are a big handling issue.

[robertmark]

Originally Posted by john walker's workshop

Tires with soft sidewalls are a big handling issue.

That's interesting you mention soft sidewalls. When my engine builder saw the new tires I put on the car he said they were pieces of s***!! I didn't take him too serious as he thinks everything is a piece of s***. I have Michelin defenders 185 70r 14. Should I have gone with a vr tire, like the vredestein sport classic? What are you guys running?

[robertmark]

[QUOTE=spyerx;10924865]Thanks. That’s the struggle and with mine i kept the chassis mods period correct and in line with a firmer more sporting feel vs making it drive like a later car.

One easy and not too $ upgrade assuming you have the mount points on your a arms is the front sway. The rears require welding the factory mount points on. I think a front sway bar will help a lot with the lean.

My a arms are new. What do the mounting points you referred to look like. I think I would like a front sway bar

[icarp]

I love my Vredestiens . Check the air pressure in your tires 32-33 hot ? then try more or less.
The ride height looks too low , which puts the roll center too low . That and the fact that you have no sway bars will cause excessive body roll . Look at the front control arms and notice the angle of the arm, is it level ? or pointing down to the outside , or pointing up to the outside . They should have a small angle drooping to the outside . Then when that is set correctly, the tie rods need to be set to dead level . Porsche calls for 108mm +- 5mm wheel center to T bar center front and 12mm +-5 on the rear .
I hope this helps ,Icarp
PS , sway bars for this car would only be about 15mm in diameter

[1979-930]

Is your other car a Targa?
Unless the bushings are shot I would think it’s just the difference in cars.
Targa, old torsion bars and bushings, no sway bars and 70 series tires is going to feel soft.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[robertmark]

Originally Posted by 1979-930

Is your other car a Targa?
Unless the bushings are shot I would think it’s just the difference in cars.
Targa, old torsion bars and bushings, no sway bars and 70 series tires is going to feel soft.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My other car is an 89 911 widebody. It has no body roll compared to my 69e.

[RWebb]

based on your responses, I think it has to be the lack of sway bars, tho I dunno how soft the sidewalls on those tires are.

if you can feel the degree of time lag in the roll, it might be very soft shocks - but it seems unlikely as you said they were new - they weren't "comfort" shocks were they?

(Porsche offered a comfort pkg at one point - softer ride)

and BTW, running a F. sway bar only will alter the under/over steer balance, so be aware - there is a chart on what does what so you don't have to think your way thru it

[burgermeister]

I agree with John Walker.

I have an 88 on 16" rims. On the street it wears out rear tires 2x faster than fronts. I once replaced just the rears to save money (same tire model). The car became fairly dangerous-feeling for any quick steering inputs above 75MPH. I ended up replacing the fronts as well, the severity of the issue was drastically reduced. Just the extra tread made the difference. The car was set up for track, with -1.8 deg camber all around, so that didn't help - but it works the same for a street alignment as well, just the degree is different.

16" wheels and staggered widths should help your situation.