Synthetic oil change for the northeast

[jgurnari]

Can someone recommend a good synthetic oil to use for fall in the Northeast... I am going to change it myself this time... Porsche wants $375!!!

[smokintr6]

I mean, everyone has their own preference. It's like asking about religion.

I run Amsoil Z Rod 20w50 in mine. I would consider also Mobil1 15w50 also. There are some other acceptable choices that many people run that would also be fine. There's no single correct answer.

If you don't feel like you need the synthetic, then Valvoline VR1 racing, or Brad penn would be suitable replacements. If you're not regularly seeing oil temps over 220F you probably don't *need* synthetic oil, strictly speaking.

[jgurnari]

20/50 and 10/50 are both good for the fall temps? those both synthetic?

can I go back to regular oil if mechanic has been using synthetic? I was told NO! but never understood why it cant be done...dont believe it.

thanks smokintr6

[AndrewCologne]

For the northeast I would never use 20w50, 15w50 or even 10w60. In those cold NE winter areas at deep cold temps the oil would take much longer to reach the important parts for lubrification.
Just look into the TDS from the manufacturers and compare the viscosity value at low temps with values from oils like 5w40, 10w40 or 15w40.

You can easely change to a non synthetic one. The other way around is (if its really the case as IMHO its a rumor) more problematic. You have no benefit when using synthetic oil for simple street use. Just change your oil every year, check the CO for proper mixture and everything will be fine.

[Noah930]

Being from LA, I have no FHE. Though I'm somewhat interested in the responses, as I may be moving back to New England in a couple years. FWIW, I'm using the Mobil 1 15w-50. I would think that the 15 weight oil would be OK in a New England fall. I wouldn't think there would be too many air-cooled 911s running around in New England during those 3 weeks in February where it doesn't get above freezing.

I don't think there's a reason why a motor can't go back and forth between dino and synthetic oil. I think there was actually a question in this month's Excellence about this exact issue. The expert opinion was that it's OK to switch. Anecdotally, some people have noted an increase in oil leaks if they switched from dino to synthetic. But there's no real harm done to the motor.

[darrin]

jgurnari -- few questions / thoughts

1) how do you use your 911? I.e. is it kept in a temperature controlled garage at night? Driven to work and parked outside during the day in COLD weather?

I ask this, as I look at oil viscosity requirements as stemming from the environment your car sees, not simply the outside temp. If your car sits in a garage that never goes under 50 degrees, then it's seeing 50 degree oil when it starts. Conversely, if you park your car outside all day while you work and you have 0 degree days like we have in CO, you need to use oil that's appropriate for this environment.

2) what oil (brand/viscosity) do you currently use? I'm a big proponent of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" -- while I agree that $375 for an oil change is crazy expensive, doubt that the price is primarily being driven by $20 per quart oil . . . .

I've personally been happy with the Brad Penn 15-40 partial synthetic my mechanic recommended after performing a top end rebuild on my 3.2 -- At over 100k miles post-rebuild, I'm still getting over 2k miles per quart of oil. Recognize that 15 weight is thick for LOW temperatures, but keep my '86 targa in a heated (50 degree plus) garage at home and treat my 911 very gingerly during warmup when starting up after the car's sat in my office's unheated garage at such low temps for a day.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by jgurnari

Can someone recommend a good synthetic oil to use for fall in the Northeast... I am going to change it myself this time... Porsche wants $375!!!

You can use M1 15w-50 all year round

the 15 part of the spec is for cold the 50 for hot,

It has the right ZDDP spec it has the right weight spec
It's available everywhere, I usually pay ~$20 for a 5 quart jug then get a $12 rebate(this years rebate promo has just expired)

If you were tracking it and wanted the last 1/10 hp a 15w-40 or 15/4 45 might be appropriate but that also depends on how good your cooling system is

[jgurnari]

It’s parked underground but not temp controlled by any means. It’s cold in winter but not parked outside.. I will only drive for pleasure in the winter months in NJ.. never in rain or snow but do when it’s dry and cold. The last oil change was not detailed on the receipt or window sticker reminder, all I know Is it was synthetic.

Originally Posted by darrin

jgurnari -- few questions / thoughts

1) how do you use your 911? I.e. is it kept in a temperature controlled garage at night? Driven to work and parked outside during the day in COLD weather?

I ask this, as I look at oil viscosity requirements as stemming from the environment your car sees, not simply the outside temp. If your car sits in a garage that never goes under 50 degrees, then it's seeing 50 degree oil when it starts. Conversely, if you park your car outside all day while you work and you have 0 degree days like we have in CO, you need to use oil that's appropriate for this environment.

2) what oil (brand/viscosity) do you currently use? I'm a big proponent of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" -- while I agree that $375 for an oil change is crazy expensive, doubt that the price is primarily being driven by $20 per quart oil . . . .

I've personally been happy with the Brad Penn 15-40 partial synthetic my mechanic recommended after performing a top end rebuild on my 3.2 -- At over 100k miles post-rebuild, I'm still getting over 2k miles per quart of oil. Recognize that 15 weight is thick for LOW temperatures, but keep my '86 targa in a heated (50 degree plus) garage at home and treat my 911 very gingerly during warmup when starting up after the car's sat in my office's unheated garage at such low temps for a day.

[jgurnari]

Wow, where do you buy it for $20 .. I found it for $36 at best.

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

You can use M1 15w-50 all year round

the 15 part of the spec is for cold the 50 for hot,

It has the right ZDDP spec it has the right weight spec
It's available everywhere, I usually pay ~$20 for a 5 quart jug then get a $12 rebate(this years rebate promo has just expired)

If you were tracking it and wanted the last 1/10 hp a 15w-40 or 15/4 45 might be appropriate but that also depends on how good your cooling system is

[darrin]

Walmart has it for $25 -- https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mobil-1-Advanced-Full-Synthetic-Motor-Oil-15W-50-5-Quart/20713647?selected=true

Agree with Bill V -- Mobil 1 15w-50 is a good choice for you/your needs

[AndrewCologne]

Originally Posted by Bill

You can use M1 15w-50 all year round
the 15 part of the spec is for cold the 50 for hot,

The cold viscosity of a 15w50 or even a10w60 often is higher than a 20w50 – so a lower first value does not always mean less viscosity when cold.
Thats what at least the TDS of big oil companies do say

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by AndrewCologne

The cold viscosity of a 15w50 or even a10w60 often is higher than a 20w50 – so a lower first value does not always mean less viscosity when cold.
Thats what at least the TDS of big oil companies do say

the weights specs are closely controlled and spelled out in SAE J3000 and J306
J300


J306


You people will apparently believe anything that any fool posts

[sugarwood]

Who runs non-ZDDP fortified Synthetic oil that is not 20w-50?

[AndrewCologne]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

You people will apparently believe anything that any fool posts

What fool do you mean?

See the TDS of known oil companies (example table of products sold in germany below) do state that the cold viscosity of i.E 10w60 (bottom of table) is even higher than 20w50:

Name                           Visko.(mm²/s)/40°C     Visko.(mm²/s)/100°C     API      ACEA       Porsche Freigabe
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-

5w40 Beispiele
———————————————

CASTROL GTX 5w40               78,0                             13,2          SM       A3/B4
Mannol Extreme 5w40            79,2                             13,3          SN       A3/B4      A40
Liqui M. LL High Tech 5W-40    80,5                             14,0          SN       A3/B4      A40
Meguin High Cond. SAE 5W-40    80,5                             14,0          SN       A3/B4      A40  
Motul 6100 SYNERGIE 5w-40      85,3                             14,1          SN       A3/B4
Mobil Super 3000 X1 5W-40      84                               14,1          SN       A3/B4      A40

CASTROL EDGE 5W-40 vollsynth.  75,0                             13,0          SN       C3
Mannol Elite 5W-40 vollsynth.  80,5                             13,5          SN       A3/B4      A40      
Liqui M. HT. 5W-40 vollsynth.  90.2                             14,5          SM       A3/B4      A40
Meguin SAE 5W-40 vollsynth.    90.2                             14,5          SM       A3/B4      A40
Motul 8100 5w-40 vollsynth.    84,7                             14,1          SN       C3         A40




15w40 Beispiele
———————————————

Castrol GTX 15W-40             102                              14.3          SL       A3/B3
Mannol Universal 15W-40        105                              13,9          SG       -
Liqui M. Touring HT 15W-40     101                              14,4          SL       A3/B4      
Meguin HD-C3 SAE 15W-40        101                              14,4          SL       A3/B4          
Motul 4000 15w-40              110                              14,6          SL       A3/B4
Mobil Super 1000 X1 15W-40     107                              14,4          SL       A3/B3




5w50 Beispiele
———————————————

CASTROL Edge 5w50 vollsynth.   109,7                            17,87         SN       A3/B4
Mannol 5w50 HC-Synth..         99,1                             16,6          SN       A3/B3
Liqui M. 5W-50 vollsynth.      117                              18,5          SJ       A3/B3
Meguin SuperLL 5w50 vollsynth. 122                              18,7          SM       A3/B4
Motul SPORT 5w50 vollsynth.    107,1                            17,9          SM       -
Mobil 1 FS x1 5W-50 vollsynth. 101                              ???           SN       A3/B4      A40




20w50 Beispiele
———————————————

Castrol Classic XL 20W-50      153                              17,3          SF       -
Mannol Safari                  158                              18            SL       -
Liqui M. Touring HT 20W-50     153                              18,1          SL       A3/B4
Meguin Universal SAE 20W-50    153                              18,1          SL       A3/B4  
Motul CLASSIC 20W-50           164                              18            SF      
Mobil Super 1000 20W-50        146                              17,8          SL       -




10w60 Beispiele (vollsynth.)
———————————————

Castro Edge Synth 10w60        160                              22,7          SN       A3/B4
Mannol 10w60                   165                              22,3          SN       A3/B4
Liqui Moly Syn 10w60           168                              24            SL       A3/B4
Meguin Racer 10w60             168                              24            SL       A3/B4
Motul 8100 X-POWER 10W-60      163,4                            23,5          SN       A3/B4
Mobil 1 Extended Life™ 10W-60  152,7                            22,7          SN       A3/B4

https://d23zpyj32c5wn3.cloudfront.net/images/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/45555/4100_Power_15W50_08.pdf?1492017270
Here the Motul 15w50 comes with 154 mm²/s at 40°C means same cold viscosity like most 20w50. And thats what Im only refering to: the cold viscosity in mm²/s which affects the flow speed of the fluid to reach important parts on cold starts as of the thread starter is talking about using it in NE areas.

I dont know which brands exactly do provide their 15w50 with such a high mm²/s vaue at cold temps, but at least someone should check.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by AndrewCologne

What fool do you mean?

See the TDS of known oil companies (example table of products sold in germany below) do state that the cold viscosity of i.E 10w60 (bottom of table) is even higher than 20w50:

Name                           Visko.(mm²/s)/40°C     Visko.(mm²/s)/100°C     API      ACEA       Porsche Freigabe
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-

5w40 Beispiele
———————————————

CASTROL GTX 5w40               78,0                             13,2          SM       A3/B4
Mannol Extreme 5w40            79,2                             13,3          SN       A3/B4      A40
Liqui M. LL High Tech 5W-40    80,5                             14,0          SN       A3/B4      A40
Meguin High Cond. SAE 5W-40    80,5                             14,0          SN       A3/B4      A40  
Motul 6100 SYNERGIE 5w-40      85,3                             14,1          SN       A3/B4
Mobil Super 3000 X1 5W-40      84                               14,1          SN       A3/B4      A40

CASTROL EDGE 5W-40 vollsynth.  75,0                             13,0          SN       C3
Mannol Elite 5W-40 vollsynth.  80,5                             13,5          SN       A3/B4      A40      
Liqui M. HT. 5W-40 vollsynth.  90.2                             14,5          SM       A3/B4      A40
Meguin SAE 5W-40 vollsynth.    90.2                             14,5          SM       A3/B4      A40
Motul 8100 5w-40 vollsynth.    84,7                             14,1          SN       C3         A40




15w40 Beispiele
———————————————

Castrol GTX 15W-40             102                              14.3          SL       A3/B3
Mannol Universal 15W-40        105                              13,9          SG       -
Liqui M. Touring HT 15W-40     101                              14,4          SL       A3/B4      
Meguin HD-C3 SAE 15W-40        101                              14,4          SL       A3/B4          
Motul 4000 15w-40              110                              14,6          SL       A3/B4
Mobil Super 1000 X1 15W-40     107                              14,4          SL       A3/B3




5w50 Beispiele
———————————————

CASTROL Edge 5w50 vollsynth.   109,7                            17,87         SN       A3/B4
Mannol 5w50 HC-Synth..         99,1                             16,6          SN       A3/B3
Liqui M. 5W-50 vollsynth.      117                              18,5          SJ       A3/B3
Meguin SuperLL 5w50 vollsynth. 122                              18,7          SM       A3/B4
Motul SPORT 5w50 vollsynth.    107,1                            17,9          SM       -
Mobil 1 FS x1 5W-50 vollsynth. 101                              ???           SN       A3/B4      A40




20w50 Beispiele
———————————————

Castrol Classic XL 20W-50      153                              17,3          SF       -
Mannol Safari                  158                              18            SL       -
Liqui M. Touring HT 20W-50     153                              18,1          SL       A3/B4
Meguin Universal SAE 20W-50    153                              18,1          SL       A3/B4  
Motul CLASSIC 20W-50           164                              18            SF      
Mobil Super 1000 20W-50        146                              17,8          SL       -




10w60 Beispiele (vollsynth.)
———————————————

Castro Edge Synth 10w60        160                              22,7          SN       A3/B4
Mannol 10w60                   165                              22,3          SN       A3/B4
Liqui Moly Syn 10w60           168                              24            SL       A3/B4
Meguin Racer 10w60             168                              24            SL       A3/B4
Motul 8100 X-POWER 10W-60      163,4                            23,5          SN       A3/B4
Mobil 1 Extended Life™ 10W-60  152,7                            22,7          SN       A3/B4

https://d23zpyj32c5wn3.cloudfront.net/images/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/45555/4100_Power_15W50_08.pdf?1492017270
Here the Motul 15w50 comes with 154 mm²/s at 40°C means same cold viscosity like most 20w50. And thats what Im only refering to: the cold viscosity in mm²/s which affects the flow speed of the fluid to reach important parts on cold starts as of the thread starter is talking about using it in NE areas.

I dont know which brands exactly do provide their 15w50 with such a high mm²/s vaue at cold temps, but at least someone should check.

the above is an apples to oranges data set comparison
40C is 104F

J300 specs are at -40c to -10C depending on the weight

for 15 weight it is -20 or -25C depending on whether cranking or pumping cp is measured

[AndrewCologne]

What you're refering to are specs (with no doubt from my side and I know them) but the table and comparison above is what the TDS from the manufactures says regarding the viscosities of their products. based on the viscosity index.

Here a comparison of the range from Motul, 5w40 up to 10w60, ... dino and synthetic.
You can use other brands ranges as far as you know the TDS's specific viscosities cSt at given temps like 40c and 100c.

mm²/s = cSt ... and the cold values in the brackets are calculated using this tool
Calculate viscosity at given temperature | Nimac Great Britain

Motul 20w50 Classic (dino)

18 mm²/s @ 100c
164.4 mm²/s @ 40c
(2663 mm²/s @ 0c)
(7034 mm²/s @ -10c)
Viscositiy index = 121



Motul 5w40 (Synthetic)

14.1 mm²/s @ 100c
84.7 mm²/s @ 40c
(715 mm²/s @ 0c)
(1498 mm²/s @ -10c)
Viscositiy index = 172



Motul 15w40 (dino)

14.6 mm²/s @ 100c
110 mm²/s @ 40c
(1340 mm²/s @ 0c)
(3254 mm²/s @ -10c)
Viscositiy index = 136



Modul 15w50 (dino)

19,7 mm²/s @ 100c
154 mm²/s @ 40c
(1855 mm²/s @ 0c)
(4428 mm²/s @ -10c)
Viscositiy index = 147



Modul 15w50 (300v synthetic)

18.1 mm²/s @ 100c
122.9 mm²/s @ 40c
(1200 mm²/s @ 0c)
(2642 mm²/s @ -10c)
Viscositiy index = 164



Motul 10w60 (synthetic)

23.5 mm²/s @ 100c
163,4 mm²/s @ 40c
(1505 mm²/s @ 0c)
(3412 mm²/s @ -10c)
Viscositiy index = 174



As seen above I still would recommend not using i.E. a 10w60 or some of 15w50 oils in NE areas at winter temps. Interesting also the behavior of the same brands 15w50 dino compared to 15w50 synthetic at very low temps, same SAE grade but significant different viscosities.

So my point simply is ... someone should not only rely on the oils SAE grade rather at least should check the TDS and the viscosity index, thats what I meant.

[Glenfield]

This is very helpful. No doubt of great interest to those who are about to go into ~0-10C / 32 - ~45F weather for a few months. At risk of being wrapped across the knuckles, can you take a step back and also explain what we’re looking at in terms of cSt and what we should be solving for?

[AndrewCologne]

cSt is used here for the value of kinematic viscosity:
https://www.rheosense.com/basics/viscosity-units

Btw, ... actaully somehow funny is the part in the link where its mentioned that honey comes with a cSt of 3.500 , so at -10C° even the synthetic Motul 10w60 of above actaully IS "honey" at room temperature. As well as the Dino 15w50 and the 15w40, not mention the 20w50 based on the infos from the TDS's from the mentioned products above. And Im very shure other brands and their customer adressed oils wont differ that much.

So less viscosity the faster the fluid moves/flows, BUT thats only one aspect of the relegion of choosing an Oil as we know. But in case of cold environmental temps someone should take care of, .. just my 2 cents.

[rw229]

If it was at the Porsche dealer, it may be Porsche Classic 10-60 synthetic. PCG-043-210-15. Or you could always give them a call.

Originally Posted by jgurnari

It’s parked underground but not temp controlled by any means. It’s cold in winter but not parked outside.. I will only drive for pleasure in the winter months in NJ.. never in rain or snow but do when it’s dry and cold. The last oil change was not detailed on the receipt or window sticker reminder, all I know Is it was synthetic.

[da Vinci Dan]

I doubt you will drive it when it is less than 20* so it really doesn't matter.