I have had these symptoms. One was the cold start injector needed an o-ring. The second was one of the wires in the connector to my CDI had backed out a bit and was a bit intermittent. The other time, it was a bad fuel pump.

A bad fuel accumulator or a bad pump will both cause this situation.

Hmm, may still want to check fuel pump inlets for restrictions such as filter screens, swollen hoses, pin holes, kinks etc.
This is a tough one to crack right?

It's funny how a 100 dollar reward will get all these responses. got to love it! I have to use that in the future.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat6.gifhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat6.gif

So with relay 4 bypassed (assuming you mean pin 30 connected to 87a), the fuel pumps should run all the time. You did not mention or I missed it where you said the fuel pumps are running all the time. Do you hear the fuel pumps running when the dead cranking occurs?

Not sure what you mean by "bypassed to feed CDI". On my '86 930, relay 4 is energized by the alarm system or throttle sensor plate. When energized, relay 4 cuts off power to the fuel pump relay coils. A little circuit board on relay 4 delays its turn-on when the IG key is turned from OFF to ON. This turn-on delay is what drives the FPs for 0.5-1 second when the key is turned ON.

well said --my kinda point in more words;-)

Ivan

As I understand relay 4 is a shut-off relay, feeds the CDI after you turn off the ignition to burn excess fuel. Relay 3 is the fuel pressure fuel pump relay that turns the fuel pumps when you start the car.

Originally the car had both relays by-passed and fuel pumps started with ignition switch. I corrected relay 3 to work as it should. Relay 4 is by-passed.

This might be a new trend:).

CSV both “o” rings new and tested with carb cleaner.
Engine wire harness to CDI is new
Both fuel pumps and check valves are new

When I mean new is that they were working but decided to replace them just to see if it will improve to no luck.

This has been great so far and thanks to all the interested parties. This has been going on for a couple of years, so I do not expect to solve it overnite. It is annoying but is starts every time so I just let it continue, troubleshoot and use the car. But the car is almost completely sorted out and I only have the difficult details left. From the suggestions I got so far I will:
1. Get the latest fuel pressure readings to post them.
2. Re-do smoke test.

In the mean while please keep asking and I will do my best to provide info on the questions, see attached new video of several stop-starts. You will see that once in a while if it misses that first start attemp, it will need several long cranks to start.

https://youtu.be/5VxvGFu1u-w

1.what is your sensor plate position physically????
2.what is that white smoke??

On a separate note. With all this testing and trouble shooting. I had to hook the battery to the charger. It seems to have improved the start. It seems more consistent. Still not 100% but with battery fully charged engine cranks faster and I have less no-starts when I go to the garage for the random start tests during the day. I guess a new starter to battery cable at some point will not hurt.

Whose internals in the CDI box?

plus check all your ground connections......

Just a question - isn’t the consistent starting/stopping as shown on the video a strain on your starter motor? I’d be concerned about it over-heating unnecessarily. Or am I just wrong/they are designed to take that?

Jason

Good idea, typically a classic.

I know you have said you checked your fuel pressure after the fuel filter. Share with us all what your pressure is only after it has been sitting for a while and after a single crank is applied. Keep in mind, when the motor is installed, ignition will route through a relay (key position 1). At key position 1, the fuel line to the motor is primed to the correct pressure. At key position 2, the relay turns the motor over only after the fuel line is primed. With the motor outside of the car, you may be missing this step. Just ideas...

Also... test injectors for leaks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDxyubTYQew

I still think it may have to do with your CSV not working on start.

Have you confirmed it is operating as installed. Is there power to the switch when the car is cold? Is the power indeed plugged in?

Nope...........
 

Schnell,

The information you have posted applies to Carrera 3.2 Motronic system. Ivan has a CIS turbo 3.3 liter engine and a totally different system.

Tony

Fixed... Good catch Tony!

I have a distant memory of such a starting condition on a car.

You reported some improvement cleaning battery terminals and charging the battery.

Have you tried substituting the battery with a known good one?

Swap out your battery with one from another car and see if there is any difference.

It's a long shot, but one of the quickest easiest things you can do.

I solved something like 5-problems by putting a fresh battery in my old S10 pickup truck.

Initial observation of your video looks like a weak ignition. A failing battery, CDI, coil or alternator could be the culprit. If it is a weak ignition use my part of the bounty to fix the problem.

CDI box is a 8-pin core with new internals from another vendor that I prefer not to name on the forum, but I will send you a PM.

The truth is that it has not been a good experience for the CDI , but a great source for hard to find stuff for our cars.

1st time it lasted just a couple of weeks, fixed and they recommended to change the engine wire harness. I also installed proper Ohms ends on spark plug wires.

Since then it has been back 2 more times for service. Last time it was upgraded for more resilience. I guess mine was not the only one with problems.

It has a brand new fresh battery and during this testing I have it hooked to a battery tender. It improves, but like I said not 100% solution. I still get some long cranks.

White smoke is from the oil reservoir line to air filter housing. Took the air filter
Housing to troubleshoot.

Sensor plate was verified when engine was out

On my ground verification taks I removed the alternator to verify strap, verified strap on CDI base, engine/transmision support to chassis.
All verified with power probe and in working order.

This was just for that video, not normal use.

I have, I tested the wire signal to injector with power probe, took injector out and applied power and tested. Also tried starting the car cold w/o CSV and it gets way worse. Once you plug the wire to the CSV it starts faster.

ivanuf..there are many more locations you should check for grounds, front trunk to start with behind the fuel filter just name some.....
sensor plate was verified means -you have adjusted to correct location?

Also seeing the engine running backwards when starting..how is your ignition timing on distributor??

Ivanhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1609088448.jpg

Update!!

I went into the garage this morning to do the daily start test and the car started right up and then died and did not started any more. It felt different than previous test, verified and sure enough no-spark and dead CDI again for the 4th time!

So at this point I will assume the problem will be due to the failing CDI, but I can not confirm this is the case until I replace the CDI and use the car for a while. I will definitely not go via the same route as all this time because seems that all the times I am getting a repaired CDI it may be having some internal problems with intermittent CDI performance.

Here is a PIC of the inside of the CDI.

Suggestions on:
1. Any testing recommended to the (new) wire harness before I install a new CDI, besides obvious ground and 12v readings?
2. What is the most reliable route on my CDI quest?
A 6-pin with modified harness end plug?
Classic Retrofit Option?(a little hesitant with modern electronics after bad experience with MSD and this modified CDI)
I guess the ideal will be to source an 8-pin CDI and have it sent to Ingo, but they are very hard to find.

Pros and cons or ideas welcome.

Once I sort this CDI failure I will update and if problem persists I will proceed with fuel pressure readings and smoke test if needed, but probably not, price money will be pending to confirm if CDI failure was 100% of the problem, so far the car won the price by giving up on starting, but Rarly8 and Jonny H were the closest to the cause so far...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1609090463.jpg

I suspect that your CSV is faulty and providing too much fuel and flooding the engine.

regards,
al

That is some mighty sloppy solder work there.

OK - I'm out - I already had the $$$ spent.......:(

Just keep going, you seem to have a process going.

I did read one claim that a weak battery can ruin a starter and alternator because of the diodes in them. The diodes can go bad or in some cases be fused together.

Since you took care of the battery replacing any new stuff should in theory eliminate those items from contention.

I know it's poor form, but on my older vehicles I adjust and lower my expectations. Do I really need a working dome light? Do I really need working A/C or heat for that matter?

Starting issues are frustrating because you really do need the car to start.

Sounds like you may have found your culprit- I once had a intermittent Permatune box that drove me nuts trying to verify that it was indeed the problem.

If the replacement CDI box doesn’t solve the problem, I would hook up a timing light every time I tried to start the engine to see if you have spark during the no start issue. Slight pain, but pretty simple way to track down if it’s an ignition problem.

Still think it is a CSV problem.

You may want one of these to test for spark.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001OK8KK2/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1?psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbG lmaWVyPUFVMDA5SVpOQlA0MTEmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAyMjkw NTYySzk1Q083RkoyTDVaJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3NDI1MD EzUFI5SFdPMlBBVDdBJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsMiZh Y3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydW U=

I will as soon as I get it running again. Thanks

4 dead CDIs? This would seem to indicate that something is killing them, my bet is the alternator is overvolting, killing the CDIs plenty of the caps in the electrical components are rated for 16V, not much headroom for overvolting. When my alternator was dying it took some electrical components with it.

My 75 non turbo did the same thing. Sometimes it would start easily other times not so easy. Random. Had it towed twice thdn it started when back home. Checked everything. Pulllrd the distributor adjusted points etc. bought a pertronix ignitor. When i installed it i noticed that the black points wire in one section was bare from rubbing against the distributor cam lobe. It did not alasys touch but i assume would shrink or expand to cause a problem. Pertronix installed the problem was solved.

Saludos Ivan !

Two things that I would do:

1- Klassic Retrofit CDI is a very good alternative (We are using it on one of the Jose's cars)
2- Please.... confirm that valves are correctly adjusted (I have seen a lot of problems with engine valves just a little bit over adjusted) It is always better being on the loose side.

Regards.