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-   -   $100 Prize for the Guru that solves my Itermittent long cranks problem! (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1081613-100-prize-guru-solves-my-itermittent-long-cranks-problem.html)

mysocal911 12-28-2020 04:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gomezoneill (Post 11156837)
That is some mighty sloppy solder work there.
Yes, what a waste of rare Bosch CDI unit to incorporate a Mickey_Mouse aftermarket design.
Those Bosch eight pin 8 CDIs, i.e. used on the early 930s & BMW race cars which rarely if ever fail,
typically sell for $1,000 - $1500.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-930-ICM-Ignition-Control-Module-BOSCH-0-227-300-003-19-C-402/153948638279?epid=110267163&hash=item23d80dcc47:g: KLoAAOSwnNZdjWsZ

ivanuf 12-29-2020 03:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClickClickBoom (Post 11158089)
4 dead CDIs? This would seem to indicate that something is killing them, my bet is the alternator is overvolting, killing the CDIs plenty of the caps in the electrical components are rated for 16V, not much headroom for overvolting. When my alternator was dying it took some electrical components with it.
Good point, it was repaired prior to engine install, but I will verify. Thanks

ivanuf 12-29-2020 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47silver (Post 11158491)
My 75 non turbo did the same thing. Sometimes it would start easily other times not so easy. Random. Had it towed twice thdn it started when back home. Checked everything. Pulllrd the distributor adjusted points etc. bought a pertronix ignitor. When i installed it i noticed that the black points wire in one section was bare from rubbing against the distributor cam lobe. It did not alasys touch but i assume would shrink or expand to cause a problem. Pertronix installed the problem was solved.
Very interesting discovery, since the distributor was bought new from the same supplier of the CDI I will pull it out and verify while I wait for the new CDI. I’ll keep you posted on this. Thanks
Ivan

ivanuf 12-29-2020 03:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysocal911 (Post 11158522)
Yes, what a waste of rare Bosch CDI unit to incorporate a Mickey_Mouse aftermarket design.
Those Bosch eight pin 8 CDIs, i.e. used on the early 930s & BMW race cars which rarely if ever fail,
typically sell for $1,000 - $1500.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-930-ICM-Ignition-Control-Module-BOSCH-0-227-300-003-19-C-402/153948638279?epid=110267163&hash=item23d80dcc47:g: KLoAAOSwnNZdjWsZ
Yes, I agree. At the time it seem like a good deal at $600 for a 8-pin distributor.
But now we know why.

mysocal911 12-29-2020 04:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanuf (Post 11158797)
Very interesting discovery, since the distributor was bought new from the same supplier of the CDI I will pull it out and verify while I wait for the new CDI. I’ll keep you posted on this. Thanks
Ivan
Who is that supplier?

spoke 12-29-2020 05:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gomezoneill (Post 11156837)
That is some mighty sloppy solder work there.
That PCB does not have solder mask on it. All the traces are open to the environment. Plus the PCB doesn't look like it was cleaned after final soldering. Is this a prototype board or a production board?

kach22i 12-29-2020 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanuf (Post 11158797)
Very interesting discovery, since the distributor was bought new from the same supplier of the CDI I will pull it out and verify while I wait for the new CDI. I’ll keep you posted on this. Thanks
Ivan
Now I remember when I had a similar starting problem, and it would strand my vehicle.

The CDI went on my 2-stroke hovercraft, I probably messed it up by allowing the battery to die.

I eventually removed the electric starter and battery and just used the pull rope to start, but the intermittent problem persisted until I replaced the coil and CDI at the same time.

mysocal911 12-29-2020 08:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spoke (Post 11158820)
That PCB does not have solder mask on it. All the traces are open to the environment. Plus the PCB doesn't look like it was cleaned after final soldering. Is this a prototype board or a production board?
What do you expect from a likely DIY project found on the internet?
Have to love the way the components are mounted for an automotive application/reliability, right?

ClickClickBoom 12-29-2020 08:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanuf (Post 11158794)
Good point, it was repaired prior to engine install, but I will verify. Thanks
My alternator would provide 13.9-14.1 with German precision, then occasionally(once a month on a daily driver) would spike to 16-17v as per my installed voltmeter. My tach was the telltale, it spazzed out and the needle waved like a flag in a hurricane. Shortly there after my YellowBox speedo correction unit died followed by the speedo then the tach. 4 dead CDIs is a huge telltale, if they were infact dead.

madkow 12-29-2020 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanuf (Post 11153917)
First let me clarify that this has been going on for a couple of years, and during that time I have read all topics on this forum of no-start, cold, warm, you name it I have read it.

The car:
1977 930 with 3.3 Pistons, and Ignition (counter-clockwise rotation, dual vac.) and all
The 77 CIS including 8-pin CDI with replaced internals with modern electronics by another vendor. Engine out all new top end service. The car runs great and it always starts.

Sometimes it will take just a touch of the key and it will start right up, cold or warm. Quick after a drive or after a couple of weeks parked it does not matter, if it in the mood it will start right up.

But 1 out of 3 it fells like it misses that sweet spot and you will have to crank it for several long no-start cranks until it starts. The amount of time it takes is completely random. It could be warm, or cold it does not matter.

What I have troubleshooted and replaced during the last 2 years.

1. Both fuel pumps and check valves.
2. Fuel Distributor and WUR set to Tony to repair and calibrate.
3. Removed MSD and replaced with CDI with modern internals.
4. New Distributor for 3.3 bottom end
5. New engine wire harness
5. Spark plugs and cables with proper OHM ends
4. New coil and coil wire proper OHM end
5. Ignition switch
6. Fuel Filter and New Fuel Accumulator
7. New high torque starter.

Ignition timing: I do not recall now, but we have verified several times and it is within specs.

Fuel Pressures: Also all values are in spec as per my WUR as per CIS Primer hand notes for Turbo Cars.


It is not a big deal because it always starts, but if really frustrating having this issue plus my SC starts right up every single time and it just feels good.

Any suggestions on what to try or test next, I ran out of options. The person that submits a suggestion or proper help to solve the problem will receive $100 via paypal as a token of my appreciation.:)


Merry Xmas!

Ivan



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1608815128.jpg

Hmmmmm....Sounds like the wires behind the
ignition switch. The spade connectors there
expand and contract over time and eventually loosen to cause intermittent starting issues. This happened to my best friend's 930 at a car show. The car started right up after wiggling the wires. Be sure to please disconnect the battery before attempting to tighten those wires.....

Unplug each spade and ever so slight with needle pliers squeeze
each connector, also be sure to clean the connectors with a little
sandpaper. Hope this helps...

ivanuf 12-30-2020 02:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madkow (Post 11159535)
Hmmmmm....Sounds like the wires behind the
ignition switch. The spade connectors there
expand and contract over time and eventually loosen to cause intermittent starting issues. This happened to my best friend's 930 at a car show. The car started right up after wiggling the wires. Be sure to please disconnect the battery before attempting to tighten those wires.....

Unplug each spade and ever so slight with needle pliers squeeze
each connector, also be sure to clean the connectors with a little
sandpaper. Hope this helps...
Great idea, I will put this on my todo list while I wait for the CDI.

fabregas 12-30-2020 12:08 PM
Ivan, when your car have a puff puff sound or oscillation in the baffel plate when starting it’s fuel related. If your car have puff puff sound in the exhaust then is electrical related. Maybe fuel injectors issues.

gomezoneill 12-30-2020 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabregas (Post 11160698)
Ivan, when your car have a puff puff sound or oscillation in the baffel plate when starting it’s fuel related. If your car have puff puff sound in the exhaust then is electrical related. Maybe fuel injectors issues.
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????

kltarga72 12-30-2020 02:40 PM
CDI printed circuit board, looks like a couple components have been replaced along with trace repair. I would consider the circuit board suspect and most likely causing your intermittent problem. Cold solder joint issues.

fabregas 12-30-2020 06:15 PM
Your CDI must be bad or dead now but if your car have intermittent electrical issues in a CDI or in a ignition distributor your car will have back firing when starting or running.

easyed8 12-31-2020 02:16 PM
Concerning your 930 intermittent starting issue.
I would double check the plate height in the air flow housing and make sure it is set to the correct position. i believe that is - the plate even with the edge of the venturi. On cranking of the starter causes downward movement and activates the pumps. It is
important that the plate is in the correct position.. Perhaps also check the relay for the
air sensor and maybe the charge pressure switch in the intake.
best of luck with this, you deserve it!

Easy ED

PS: unplugging the safety switch is another option and quick check !

ivanuf 01-03-2021 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kltarga72 (Post 11160913)
CDI printed circuit board, looks like a couple components have been replaced along with trace repair. I would consider the circuit board suspect and most likely causing your intermittent problem. Cold solder joint issues.
Yes, the board has been sent back for repairs several times.

I will be changing to a Bosch 6-pin CDI.

I am thinking, how susceptible can these printed circuit boards be?
One thing that is way different from my SC on the 930 is that it runs HOT! Temperatures inside the engine bay are extreme!

Maybe this is the cause of all these circuit board CDI failures?

Anyway I order a 6-pin CDI from a fellow forum member, will update once I get the car running again with the new CDI box. I am also waiting for a new set of fuel gauges to post system pressures.

ivanuf 01-05-2021 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by easyed8 (Post 11162141)
Concerning your 930 intermittent starting issue.
I would double check the plate height in the air flow housing and make sure it is set to the correct position. i believe that is - the plate even with the edge of the venturi. On cranking of the starter causes downward movement and activates the pumps. It is
important that the plate is in the correct position.. Perhaps also check the relay for the
air sensor and maybe the charge pressure switch in the intake.
best of luck with this, you deserve it!

Easy ED

PS: unplugging the safety switch is another option and quick check !
Thanks, will add to my to-do list and post findings after I try again with 6-pin CDI installed

HarryD 01-05-2021 10:59 AM
Still thinking CSV. You have reported the components appear to be functional.

As a test, you can pull the wire to the CSV, attach your voltmeter between the lead and ground and with the car cold, crank the engine and see if you have power to the CSV.

I would advise NOT messing with the CIS until you have ensured all other systems are functional.

OLD SAYING:
“There are 3 types of CIS Owners:
1) The guys with working CIS systems are probably out driving their cars so they won't reply.
2) The guys that tinker with their CIS systems and have them royally screwed up will keep you running in circles with suggestions.
3) The guys that have spent a fortune on Webers will tell you they're great to justify their expenditure to themselves.

Your choice.”

bkreigsr 01-05-2021 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryD (Post 11167469)
OLD SAYING:
“There are 3 types of CIS Owners:
1) The guys with working CIS systems are probably out driving their cars so they won't reply.
2) The guys that tinker with their CIS systems and have them royally screwed up will keep you running in circles with suggestions.
3) The guys that have spent a fortune on Webers will tell you they're great to justify their expenditure to themselves.
Your choice.”
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/clap.gif
nice one Harry

creaturecat 01-05-2021 11:55 AM
does Loren repair the cdi units?
i have always received top notch service/quality of repair, compliments of him.

mysocal911 01-05-2021 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by creaturecat (Post 11167547)
does Loren repair the cdi units?
i have always received top notch service/quality of repair, compliments of him.
Check here; https://www.systemsc.com/

ivanuf 01-10-2021 01:52 PM
Ok, time for an update.
I did some more electrical system testing and found that I had CDI 12v with switch but I was sometimes loosing 12V while cranking. I tested voltage at the switch (see pic below)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1610318273.jpg
It turns out the red/black wire will provide 12v with switch on and during crank. The red/yellow wire will provide 12v with switch on but it will cut power while cranking. I located the 12v feed wire of the CDI on the fuse and it was connected on a bank feed from the red/yellow instead of the red/black.

So all the problem is related to 40year wiring hacks from who knows who. Now I got power to the CDI on every single try. And it starts every single time on the first try.

Now why was it doing it intermittent and why it suddenly stoped doing it? I have no idea. It must have been getting power from some other wire connected in a wrong place. I tried to place wires as per Factory Manual and all seems to be in order so far.

Like every electrical problem it was not a single finding, and it took a lot of testing and troubleshooting. The old 8-pin digital CDI is probably in good condition, but I am using a 6-pin now and plan to keep it that way so I can swap with the SC in case one of them goes bad.

Anyone with a 77 turbo that can provide me a couple of pictures of the fuse box. I believe all is good, but it will be nice to compare with another car just to make sure before I start the modern fuse conversion.

Thank you all for all the feedback and directions, and sorry but there was no official winner, just a lot of electrical troubleshooting on my end.

911obgyn 01-10-2021 02:26 PM
Congratulations on your persistence, if you took it to a shop they would have done the same as you and charged 100$ an hour for it.

HarryD 01-10-2021 03:49 PM
Good news. Happy to be wrong!

bkreigsr 01-10-2021 05:17 PM
Which fuse panel are you asking for - the one in the front, or engine compartment ?
If this helps you, what's my percent of the $100 ?;)
Bill K

Charles Freeborn 01-10-2021 08:42 PM
Relays can go intermittent before they die altogether.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SchnellSchweitz 01-10-2021 10:33 PM
Good job. Way to stick with it!

proporsche 01-10-2021 10:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86 911 Targa (Post 11154552)
Ignition switch.........

External or internal connection.
if you think about it the money should go to this person ...he called it but i do not see any follow ups by you..

Ivan

gomezoneill 01-11-2021 03:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by proporsche (Post 11176439)
if you think about it the money should go to this person ...he called it but i do not see any follow ups by you..

Ivan
Agreed!

gsxrken 01-11-2021 11:06 AM
Anyone who would actually take money from someone else on this board helping them troubleshoot over the internet really doesn’t belong on this board. I’m sure we all leaned in to help the guy out, not for a crummy $100, lol.

proporsche 01-11-2021 11:09 AM
Ken..we are innocent dude..it was his idea;-))))))))))))))

Ivan

gomezoneill 01-11-2021 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxrken (Post 11177211)
Anyone who would actually take money from someone else on this board helping them troubleshoot over the internet really doesn’t belong on this board. I’m sure we all leaned in to help the guy out, not for a crummy $100, lol.

So a broken promise is okay with you?

gsxrken 01-11-2021 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gomezoneill (Post 11177266)
So a broken promise is okay with you?
Never. Your point is a fair one... he should offer because he said he would. No argument. What I’m saying (and I see now Brian Bodart said something along the same lines up a few posts) is I’d hope none of us would take his money.
I’m out. Glad OP tracked it down.

ivanuf 01-11-2021 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by proporsche (Post 11176439)
if you think about it the money should go to this person ...he called it but i do not see any follow ups by you..

Ivan
He was was close to the area but in reality it was a fuse box wrong wiring caused from old shade tree mechanics moving things around with out the manual. Wrong wires connected on wrong places on the fuse box.

Today I also confirmed the source of the intermittent problem was from a bad Air Conditioner relay that for some reason was powering the CDI 12v lead by mistake in the fuse bank. It was intermittent until it died so the car never started and I assumed the CDI finally died (wrong).

I had to removed most of the wires from the fuse box fuses 16 to 21 and go one by one to isolate the problem. If anyone gave this solution I will be happy to send them the bounty. :)

Reiver 01-11-2021 04:06 PM
Wait, Wait....I get a shot....this should fix it

#1 Rated ED Clinic In Town | Revolutionary ED Treatment
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ivanuf 01-11-2021 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkreigsr (Post 11176158)
Which fuse panel are you asking for - the one in the front, or engine compartment ?
If this helps you, what's my percent of the $100 ?;)
Bill K
Hey Bill. A couple of good front fuse box pics will really help.
I will check with overstock what is the going rate for fuse box pics:)

Thanks
Ivan

bkreigsr 01-12-2021 07:18 AM
Ivan....not sure exactly what you're looking for.
Let me know if you need more.

The extra red wires were added as I hardwired the radio, added a fan to the oil cooler, added an adapter for my Garmin, and powered the antennae on a separate circuit.

Bill K

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1610468211.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1610468236.jpg

kach22i 01-12-2021 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanuf (Post 11177742)
He was was close to the area but in reality it was a fuse box wrong wiring caused from old shade tree mechanics moving things around with out the manual. Wrong wires connected on wrong places on the fuse box.

Today I also confirmed the source of the intermittent problem was from a bad Air Conditioner relay that for some reason was powering the CDI 12v lead by mistake in the fuse bank. It was intermittent until it died so the car never started and I assumed the CDI finally died (wrong).

I had to removed most of the wires from the fuse box fuses 16 to 21 and go one by one to isolate the problem. If anyone gave this solution I will be happy to send them the bounty. :)
Your perseverance is commendable.

I was miffed at a few fuse amp ratings being in the wrong place on my electrical panels, lucky dog me it could have been worse and rewired like yours.

Continue without guilt and know that people in the forum would have helped you either way.

ivanuf 01-12-2021 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkreigsr (Post 11178570)
Ivan....not sure exactly what you're looking for.
Let me know if you need more.

The extra red wires were added as I hardwired the radio, added a fan to the oil cooler, added an adapter for my Garmin, and powered the antennae on a separate circuit.

Bill K

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1610468211.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1610468236.jpg
Bill those are perfect!
It will help me identify if I have any other wire out of place.
Thanks
Ivan


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