Brake Upgrades

[maktarga]

Hi y’all. What’s a direct bolt on brake upgrade to the oem brakes on my 86 Targa? If you can dumb it down to me I’ll appreciate it 😊
Thank you

[Arlo911]

If you use the search function or even search through google you'll find a lot of brake upgrade threads...
If you don't plan on tracking your car a lot, just make sure your stock brake system is in top condition, with some good fluid and good pads. Racing pads suck on the street by the way. A well maintained stock 911 braking system is very good, these were not cheap cars when new, and also fast cars in their day with braking to match.
Lots of opinions on this, but I would put my money in some track driving tuition, shorter geared transmission, LSD if you don't have one, or put it aside for a future rebuild.

[darrin]

maktarga -- what problem/deficiency with your brakes are you trying to address? Stepping hard on my '86 targa's brake pedal, I can easily lock up my wheels/tires at will with stock brakes -- an "upgrade" isn't going to improve this stopping function. Some folks that track these cars can run into fade issues due to heat build-up caused by rapid, successive, threshold braking episodes -- the additional thermal mass afforded by larger rotors can help with this, but so too (and far more cheaply) can improvements to the brake cooling routing of our stock brakes.

[MichaelSJackson]

For the best advice, you need to describe what kind of driving you plan to do. You can "bolt on" a
brake system for racing, or minor upgrades for canyon carving or just freshen up an already good system?

[RWebb]

what is the problem with your brakes?

most upgrades aren't

[911pcars]

Actually, "most upgrades aren't"......used to their potential but for some other objective.

[chrismorse]

I have cooked brake pads at fast auto-Xs faded stock brake pads, (not boiled fluid) driving fairly quickly going down a long mountain drive.
I am now going with new pmb calipers, new discs, SS lines and ducted air to the front discs. The car is a light 74 with only a little more than stock horsepower.
I am hopeful that i will be able to do a few DE events at thunderhill, without cooking the yellow stuff pads and LMA castrol fluid.
Am i being too optimistic?? should i bite the bullet and go to Motul and Pagid pads - or?????
chris

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by chrismorse

Am i being too optimistic?? should i bite the bullet and go to Motul and Pagid pads - or?????

Not too much bullet to bite with Motul brake fluid. Good stuff. Find some at your nearest motorcycle dealer (or internet).

Better brake pads? Yes. They will cook at higher temps. (Good).

Try those first. Next step, Carerra brakes (24mm rotors). Next step; bigger bucks.

Sherwood

[darrin]

wondering what would be involved/necessary for Chris to upgrade his 74 to Carrera calipers/disks? Since he's already going with new pmb-sourced calipers and new disks, now might be the time?

edit -- looks like it's covered here -- 1974 911 Brake Body and Wheel Upgrade -- he'd also need to convert his 3" struts to 3.5" struts

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by darrin

wondering what would be involved/necessary for Chris to upgrade his 74 to Carrera calipers/disks? Since he's already going with new pmb-sourced calipers and new disks, now might be the time?

edit -- looks like it's covered here -- 1974 911 Brake Body and Wheel Upgrade -- he'd also need to convert his 3" struts to 3.5" struts

Question is; what is the PMB brake upgrade you're referring to? Let's hope they're at least Carrera calipers and rotors.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by chrismorse

I have cooked brake pads at fast auto-Xs faded stock brake pads, (not boiled fluid) driving fairly quickly going down a long mountain drive.
I am now going with new pmb calipers, new discs, SS lines and ducted air to the front discs. The car is a light 74 with only a little more than stock horsepower.
I am hopeful that i will be able to do a few DE events at thunderhill, without cooking the yellow stuff pads and LMA castrol fluid.
Am i being too optimistic?? should i bite the bullet and go to Motul and Pagid pads - or?????
chris

FWIW, I drive my mostly 1973 911 at autocrosses a nd DE’s with stock M calipers and street pads with no drama.

I replace my fluid annually with ATE TYP200. Pads are replaced at about 33%.

Since successful performance driving of my car means I have to keep the momentum up, I try to use my brakes sparingly which is why they last.

[Sboxin]

Originally Posted by chrismorse

I have cooked brake pads at fast auto-Xs faded stock brake pads, (not boiled fluid) driving fairly quickly going down a long mountain drive.
I am now going with new pmb calipers, new discs, SS lines and ducted air to the front discs. The car is a light 74 with only a little more than stock horsepower.
I am hopeful that i will be able to do a few DE events at thunderhill, without cooking the yellow stuff pads and LMA castrol fluid.
Am i being too optimistic?? should i bite the bullet and go to Motul and Pagid pads - or?????
chris

Yes - - Motul 600 fluid -- Pagid Black on Rear - - BUT, Raybestos AP45 - ST43 on front - Slotted rotors - this is what we have used on a 1978 911 2500# race car with stock calipers (rebuilt by PMB )for 11 years now - - and we run 245/315 -17 - Hoosier A/R 7s - - Your results may vary . . . but, my son the driver can lock up the fronts if too much brake pedal . . .

Regards,

PS: Agree, Porsche builds a great machine . . .

[chrismorse]

I kept the stock 3 inch struts, so used PMBs M calipers. Wish i had a bit more forthought and gone to 3.5 struts to enable Wide As to be used, (or any of the many other upgrades).
9 years ago, when i started down the slope, i bought EBC Yellow Stuff pads, so will give them a try. I zinc plated some new discs and added the air to the front rotors.
Trans has been gone through and am now adding ITBs and SSI,(rusty originals soon to be gone).
Just bled the brakes with the LMA. If i boil it, ill try Harry's ATE or the Motul.

This wasn't a slope it was a fricken cliff.
:-) chris

Recovered sport seats
21-27 t bars.
Bilstein HD/sport
new bearings
KEP 6 pound PP
RSR flywheel
duck
air dam
new everything in fuel system,
Gateshift & renshift, stomsky
Guard LSD, new R&P, bearings/repairs
Serpentine belt conversion
Quaife Quick Rack
Sport rubber rebush.
SS lines & MC
Engine wiring harness
EDIS ignition
Soon, rust repairs
M&K sport.
205/50-15 Direzzionales
cornerweight and align, soon??
Maybe 175 HP?????

Help, I'm runnin outta time and money, (not sure when my use by date is going to arrive :-(

Still sliding........
chris

[Bill Verburg]

Here's a list of the best brake fluid out there in order of wet boiling point, if you change the fluid daily then you could look at the dry column


If you are glazing pads then you need a higher temp pad, Pagid yellow(RS29) is a good choice but there are others in the RS, RSL or RST lines, I used to use the 29s but like PFC08 better, There are also other good high temp pads

cooling should be maxed, 964/99 A-arm scoops work well

reduced weigh reduces the load on the brakes
learning to drive better also reduced the load on the brakes

as far as hardware it can get very pricey

a small improvement comes from using '84-89 Carrera fronts on a '83 or earlier car, do not use the rears from those cars though

the best is going to be '78-89 930s all around, they fit any 7 or better Fuchs and are all that most 911s could ever need to use

[Steve W]

Years ago on my track prepped 84 I ran ATE blue or gold brake fluid, along with Raybestos ST-45s on front, ST-43s rear and while the pads never faded, even when coming off track and you could feel and see the very intense heat emanating out of the brakes after a session, the fluid went soft after two days, no matter how much you bled them. Friends were bleeding their ATE fluid after each day due to the same problem. I changed to Endless RF-650, same fluid Porsche used in the GT3 Cups and RSRs, and problem gone. Never went soft again and would stay hard for the whole season.


I also use RF650 on my 86 and won't use anything else, with ST43s on front, OEM on back. With ST45s on front due to their high initial bite, I locked up the front tires too easily with 200 TW RE71Rs. ST45s are better if you run full R-comps or slicks, and have the skills to threshold brake at the limit. I still can lock up the fronts with ST43s, but not as easily, and they stop just as good stone cold as they do smoking hot.

[jpnovak]

Define...

"added air to the front rotors".

Are you using a dedicated ducting kit or just the 993 style deflectors?

I have tracked my car for 20 years on M calipers with brake ducts sending air directly into the rotors. I like the Ferrodo pads.

[Quicksilver]

New Years Eve and OP stirs the pot . . .

. . . And we're off!!!

[Mr. Merk]

Originally Posted by maktarga

Hi y’all. What’s a direct bolt on brake upgrade to the oem brakes on my 86 Targa? If you can dumb it down to me I’ll appreciate it 😊
Thank you

Originally Posted by Arlo911

If you don't plan on tracking your car a lot, just make sure your stock brake system is in top condition, with some good fluid and good pads. A well maintained stock 911 braking system is very good

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

cooling should be maxed, 964/99 A-arm scoops work well

Originally Posted by Steve W

I changed to Endless RF-650, same fluid Porsche used in the GT3 Cups and RSRs, and problem gone.

I also use RF650 on my 86 and won't use anything else

This^

I tried other things and switched back to OEM pads and rotors, but added the 964/993 cooling ducts to the A-arms and Endless RF-650 fluid last Spring.

I've had zero fade or rotor shake since and I've bombed down the Colorado Rockies on R tires, locked up the fronts going full tilt through Appalacia and conquered the Pig Trail in the Ozarks (which is the road that destroyed my brakes early last year.)

[Bill Verburg]

What you need for brakes depends on the power to weight ratio and usage

I put together this comparison of most 911 variants w/ a brake stress index, for stock systems the higher the stress index the better the fluid, pads, cooling and rotors need to be

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

What you need for brakes depends on the power to weight ratio and usage

I put together this comparison of most 911 variants w/ a brake stress index, for stock systems the higher the stress index the better the fluid, pads, cooling and rotors need to be

Bill:

Out of idle curiosity, how does my 140 hp, 2460 lb (1/2 tank of fuel and 200 lb of me) rate in your system?

Thanks!