Brake pad recomendation for 996 brakes on -87 911

[Jaskas]

Hi!

Im running 996 brakes in all 4 corners on my -87 911. I have also stock 996 pads and rotors.
I have also 930 MC and the prop valve is removed from the rear line.




I would like to have more braking power on the rear ( Track use). I´ve heard that putting a restriction valve on the front brakes is not recomendable , because of their non-linear funktion.

I beleive that the solution in my case is to have higher friction pads on the rear.

What pads combinations are you guys using in these kind of applications. Or is there some other solution to my problem?

[175K911]

My BIL and I both run the 996TT brakes on our cars (his is a 3.6 SC with JRZ's and mine's an '86 with custom valved RSR Bilsteins), both are track cars. We've both tried the Hawk HT10 front and HT14 rear, and I've tried the Pagid RS19 Yellow front (not RS29) and RS14 Black rear. He prefers the initial bite of the Hawks and I prefer the modulation of the Pagids. But even though it's moved some of the bias rearward it still isn't ideal, but can be driven very fast with some care on the brake pedal. Need to ease onto the pedal rather than just stand on in when threshhold braking. That allows the weight to transfer forward and minimize lockup. But if your brakes are the non-turbo 996, either combination might be a more ideal combination for your setup than ours.

And you're correct- never put a brake proportioning device on the front brakes. I tried it once just as an experiment and it's spooky at racing speeds due to the way they work. So I've gone to the Fabcar dual master cylinder with balance bar.

[DRACO A5OG]

I recently placed the EBC Redstuff "CERAMIC/KEVLAR" on my 3.2 OEM brakes. I absolutely love them. Quiet, Low Dust and stops on a dime.

A bit expenisive but worth it.

[spuggy]

+1 on the Pagid Yellow/RS14 Black combination with 996 NA brakes.

Great feel, bias seems good - car just hunkers down and stops. When the brakes are cold (e.g. street), the rears seem to bite just a fraction of a second - like 1/10 - faster than the fronts under moderate to heavy braking. Not a problem - and as soon as the fronts have any heat in them at all, I've never noticed it.

A repro SC/RS dual-cylinder setup was my fallback plan if I wasn't happy with the bias, but I'm quite happy not to lose the booster - pedal takes some leg to operate...

I especially liked that pad combo because the behavior in the heat ranges looked compatible to my inexpert eye - if you got into experimenting, you might need to be cautious mixing pads from different manufacturers, or watch out for front pad CoF falling off a cliff from over-temperature just as the rear pad CoF was getting into their happy place, seems to me.

A motorsport 40/65 LSD set up as tight as possible - e.g. >70 ft/lbs - also makes a huge difference under braking. And pretty much everywhere else as well.

[wildcat077]

I have the 996TT brakes on my 89 and this year i switched to Pagid RS19 and RS14 and they really stop the car although like Ed mentioned you have to modulate the pedal otherwise you will lock up the fronts ...
A good suggestion is to have the car corner balanced as that will reduce the chances of one side locking up on you.I played with the ride height and screwed up my balance and had issues with the right front locking up on me a few times !

Nevertheless i never had any overheating issues in 15 track days this Summer and i don't care what anybody says about big brakes,more weight,etc ... the peace of mind is priceless !!!

Now if only i could find a good dual master setup on the classifieds ... lol
Ed,how do you like your dual MC setup ???

Cheers !
Phil

[175K911]

Modulation is the key. After the stock brakes with HT14 pads where I could go deep into a turn and just stomp on the brakes, the extra bite from the big brakes took some getting used to.

Agree that a proper corner balance is helpful. So is shock valving. Initially my front compression was too stiff so at 130 when I got hard on the brakes the weight couldn't transfer onto the front tires and they'd lock up... not a pleasant thing at that speed.

Haven't had a chance to try the dual MC setup yet, car isn't back together.

[wildcat077]

Jaskas,

I would also suggest better cooling for the front brakes as they get a lot hotter than the rears which is the exact opposite of the stock 911 brakes which get a lot hotter in the rear ...

I've checked them constantly all Summer with a pyrometer and i will be adding some cooling ducts over the Winter.On a side note,the original 996TT pads that i replaced with Pagids were severely cracked in the front due to the heat from track use.

Ed,you must be itching to get that car back together,something tells me it will have turbo flares and fenders, and BIG tires next time out

Cheers !
Phil

[Jaskas]

Thanks for you input guys!

So I think the way to go is Pagids: Black in the rear and yellow up front. The friction behaviour in diffent temperaturs seem to be quite similar in these pads and the difference in friction level is all the time the same.

RS- 14 (Black) Friction levels
Cold 0.44
At 100°C 0.47
At 300°C 0.49
Max at (@ 600°C) 0.54

RS-19 (yellow) Friction levels
Cold 0.40
At 100°C 0.43
At 300°C 0.47
Max at (@ 550°C) 0.49

Wildcat077: I dont think that the cooling would affect the bias so dramatically. I have the problem allready with cool brakes ( and tires).

[wildcat077]

Obviously the front brake cooling will have nothing to do with the bias,it's just to level out the brake temps and preserve the pads ...
I already have the ducts and the hoses so it will be a Winter project as the backing plate for 996TT brakes is not the same as the one used with the 911 kits,so a little fabrication is called here !

Cheers !
Phil

[Jaskas]

From the experience from this season i only need more cooling for the engine, maybe some for the driver too.

[Jaskas]

First (street ) test drives done. The stopping is really good, feels much better than stock pads. The noise is something unbelievable... Is there anything anything i can do to get rid of it? I have stock squeke plates.

[wildcat077]

Jaskas,

Install a louder muffler !
The noise kind of brings attention to our cars at stoplights,at this point i don't care anymore

All the wannabe road ragers in their little modified Hondas must wonder what just pulled up next to them when they hear the squealing ... lol
Enjoy your new brakes !

Cheers !
Phil

[Jaskas]

Isnt this loud enough? :


And yes, when stopping to lights it draws more than enough attention. Im glad that people have their windows shut in their cars. Otherwise they would loose their hearing.

[Jaskas]

Hi All!

It seems that only after 8 years im now running out of my Pagid pads in my 996 brake conversion.

The car has been mostly driven on street, but few time on track per season.

The current setup is:
RS- 14 (Black) Friction levels (REAR)
Cold 0.44
At 100°C 0.47
At 300°C 0.49
Max at (@ 600°C) 0.54

RS-19 (yellow) Friction levels (FRONT)
Cold 0.40
At 100°C 0.43
At 300°C 0.47
Max at (@ 550°C) 0.49

I would like to have even more bite on the rear. Is there a pad combination somebody would recommend?

[spuggy]

My opinion of the 996 N/A setup pretty much unchanged all these years later - it's pretty awesome, except you leave a lot on the table under hard braking due to too much front bias.

Any dual master setup is the correct/best way to fix the bias, IMHO.

[3rd_gear_Ted]

Lots of 911 folks use Raybestos ST-43 on the track.
Minimal squeal
Porterfield in Costa Mesa CA

[David in VA]

I use PFC 08's on the front, 11's on the rear (2004 GT3) and really like the combination. Tried the Pagid Yellow/black but like this better.


David

[Jaskas]

Originally Posted by spuggy

My opinion of the 996 N/A setup pretty much unchanged all these years later - it's pretty awesome, except you leave a lot on the table under hard braking due to too much front bias.

Any dual master setup is the correct/best way to fix the bias, IMHO.

I agree you on that. The dual master setup would be ideal, but i dont think im going that way due to the cost.

And agreeing you on the awesomeness. They have taken quite a lot of abuse and taken it really well. Its impossible to get any fade.

There seems to be limited amount of pads available from pagid for these brakes. I have to look if there would another combination which would have more rear bias on "paper".

[Jaskas]

Originally Posted by David in VA

I use PFC 08's on the front, 11's on the rear (2004 GT3) and really like the combination. Tried the Pagid Yellow/black but like this better.


David

Im trying get the your idea behind the mentioned combination of PCF 08 /11. The compound specs on PCF website only give a difference on the cold bite:

https://pfc.parts/motorsports/pfc-compounds/

Why did you choose this combination?

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by Jaskas

I agree you on that. The dual master setup would be ideal, but i dont think im going that way due to the cost.

*Shrug*. Yeh, I know. Sometimes, you just have to bite the bullet and do it right. I didn't want to lose the servo. I came to terms with it.

Some here have modified pedal boxes to accept dual M/Cs very economically. Or even built their own.

Fabspeed solution is pretty much bolt-in, for a boosted car.

Originally Posted by Jaskas

And agreeing you on the awesomeness. They have taken quite a lot of abuse and taken it really well. Its impossible to get any fade.

Heh. After 500 miles of trying to bed in my Pagids (and thinking I'd managed it), I took the car to the track. And then realized that despite my best & concerted efforts, simply had never managed to get them hot enough on the street. They'd never gassed off...

Other than cleaning the dust off and changing the fluid every year, they haven't required anything. Pad & rotor wear is hilariously low.

Originally Posted by Jaskas

There seems to be limited amount of pads available from pagid for these brakes. I have to look if there would another combination which would have more rear bias on "paper".

My biggest concern when I looked, was mixing different characteristics of the pads. There are pads with more bite - but with temperature ranges very different to the pads fitted up front.

As it is, hard braking on "cold" rotors/pads (eg street), the front RS14s bite instantly and then the RS19s chime in a fraction later (and grip more) as they heat up. It's noticeable, but not a problem.

IIRC, RS14 is street, RS19 is semi-race. The only way to get more rear grip than RS19 is to get into full-race compounds. Which take longer to get up to temperature before they start delivering more bite.

Or use lower-spec compounds up front, for less bite.

That really didn't seem like a good road to go down, to me.