Should I delete my A/C?
 

While reviewing instructions for my chain tensioner upgrade this weekend, I realized I will have to remove my A/C condenser. Thinking about this made me wonder whether I should remove my A/C system, or leave it in & try to get it blowing cool. Here are the facts:

<ul>
<li>1982 911 SC. ~96k miles. I bought it this spring.
<li>System has the York compressor.
<li>Turning on the A/C blows air... it just isn't cool.
</ul>

I live in New Mexico, & could definetly use some more cooling. As the system works now, I don't use it. I have enough other projects for the summer that I don't want another 'major' one. What are the odds that making some hoses & recharging with Freeze 12 will improve my situation? If I expect the cost on this project to exceed $200-$300, I will probably leave it alone until next summer.

If I decide to let the A/C project wait, should I pull the system until next summer? A system that I don't use will just be dead weight, & taking it out would give me a good chance to inspect all of the parts, etc.

Has anyone else had to make this decision? What did you do? What do you suggest?

Thanks--
Rob

I live in Louisiana and my York system worked fine. I didn't use it much, so I removed it along with backdating the heat. Much cleaner engine compartment. Air cooled engine suffers enough in hot climates without the added load of air conditioning. Anyway, the car is more fun to drive with the top open and windows down.

Hmm
 

Thanks for the suggestion. If I decide to take it out, how hard is the process? Has anyone seen a how-to guide for it? How much of a PITA would it be to put it all back in later? How about a partial removal (pulling major components, but leaving wiring, switches, etc. in place)?

If you're going to remove the major componets such as compressor, and condensors and leave the hoses in the car, buy some caps to cover the hose fitting. You don't want to leave the hose open and have dirt enter the hoses. Dirt in an a/c system will ruin the system in no time.

If the system is still full or have freon on in it bring it to a a/c shop so that they can recover the freon. If you let them have the freon, they may give you a break. Don't let it out into the atmosphere.

Next Question...
 

I believe the system is bone dry. I have meticulous records from the PO's, & there is no mention of a recharge. In any case, which parts can I safely remove without having the system evacuated? The 101 parts book talks about removing the compressor without having the system evacuated first. How far can I go without releasing the gases? Should I have it evacuated if it looks like it is empty?

How long has it been empty? Seals start deteriorating without the lubricants in the coolant.

Unknown
 

I don't know how long, so I have to assume the worst. The PO kept it as a garaged Sunday driver for something like 9 years before I bought it. It was pretty well maintained, but I don't think it was recharged in years. I think I have to treat it as if it has been empty for a long time.

Since it uses the old hard to get/expensive R-12, you would need to upgrade the compressor and hoses if you went to R-134 anyways......why bother capping them?

Install of the tensioner upgrade should not require the removal of your AC compressor (or condensor - I believe you meant compressor). If you do not have a rear fender cover to protect the quarter panels and rear valence for engine compartment work, use a blanket. You should be able to remove the mounting hardware for the compressor and gently sling it over the side and rest it on the right quarter panel - on a blanket/pad to protect the body. You can use a rope or bungie cord and strap it from the compressor to a hard oil line or suspension on the underside of the wheel well.

I just removed my A/C, for these reasons:

1. I hate A/C, and only use it when necessary or my wife is in the car
2. The A/C in my 911 didn't work and I didn't feel like spending the $$ for R-12 or a R134 conversion
3. Remove some weight. THe compressor and the blower in the smuggler's box are heavy. I think someone posted a weight of ~75 lbs total
4. Working in the engine is so much better w/o A/C.
5. I live in a temperate climate, not the desert :)

Removing the system is pretty straight forward since it is really and afterthought add-on to the car in the first place. So far I've removed the compressor, condensor on the decklid, the blower in the front and the inside switches. Next I have to remove the rest of the hoses and the blower from the front.

jazzbass, what you call temperate we call freakin cold!

Thats correct... I meant compressor. Thanks for catching it.

As usual I am swimming against the school. I am putting A/C back on one car and installing it for the first time on another. We just had (last Sunday) a PCA Roadrunner Region tech session on 911 air conditioning in White Rock near Los Alamos. One car, an early 80's SC with the York compressor, was converted to 134a using the Griffiths compressor upgrade kit number one at a total cost of around $700 including the kit (Sanden compressor and clutch, adapter bracket, new receiver/drier, new compressor to condenser hose with pressure cut-off switch and a new section of suction hose), a can of aerosol condenser flush, a couple cans of refrigerant, and one new hose fitting. Prior to the tech session the car owner had his car checked and evacuated at a local garage of any remaining R-12. Then he mounted the new compressor, flushed the rear decklid and forward condensers, and installed the new compressor to condenser hose and wired up the cut-off switch. Instead of splicing in the short section of compressor suction hose provided by Griffiths we concluded there was enough hose in the existing suction line to cut off the old fitting and install a new bead lock o-ring fitting which we did a week before the tech session. At the tech session we pumped down his system and ensured it retained the vacuum against leaks using an electric vacuum pump and a R134a A/C harness/gage set. Then the system was pressurized to atmospheric pressure and the owner installed the new receiver/drier and the system was re-evacuated and again checked for leaks. After proving leak tight, it was pumped on for an hour (three hours may have been better but this is dry New Mexico and we had limited time at the tech session) with the car sitting in the sun to help the water bake out of the system and be further evacuated. Then 134a refrigerant was introduced and the system pressures monitored until an appropriate fill level for the ambient temperature (condenser inlet temperture) was reached. The car was then taken for a test drive and produced 33 degree F air temperature at moderate speeds (50 mph) although it wasn't too hot that afternoon (85F condenser inlet temperature while idling in driveway). We also did a less expensive R134a conversion of a '84 (?) Carrera with the Nippondenso compressor; this conversion cost around $150 (conversion fitting kit, ester oil, o-rings, refrigerant and new receiver/drier). This conversion parts and supplies cost can be reduced further through the use of aftermarket receiver/driers which are avalable for $30 or so.
Cheers, Jim

Thanks
 

Thoughtful reply there Jim... thanks.

I saw on the PCA region site that I missed the A/C checkout just a little too late; I was pretty annoyed that I missed it.

That info sounds good, & may turn out to be a blueprint for what I do later. Right now though, the A/C isn't a high enough priority to allocate money for a new compressor. If I have good odds of getting it blowing cool with hoses, Freeze 12, & some elbow grease I'll try it. If not, it will probably wait a while.

Just a bit off-topic, what can you tell me about the roadrunner PCA parade event coming up in Santa Fe? I spotted that on the roadrunner site as well, & was thinking about checking it out.

If you take it out? My bet is you will never go back. And that would be a fine decision!

I suspect your system is empty and at atmospheric pressure. First of all you have to get your system leak tight; if the compressor seals are what failed then it may not be worth it to spend the effort salvaging your compressor. For any refrigerant to work you are going to have evacuate your system and get the water out. If you elect to restore your system I strongly suggest you also install a new receiver/drier after you get your system leak tight. I believe you can get an aftermarket receiver/drier that fits, at AutoZone or NAPA, for between $20 and $30. I'm not a big fan of Freeze-12; if the seals in your York are good and are compatible with ester oil I'd recommend draining out the mineral oil and replacing it with A/C ester oil (also available at AutoZone) and then charging the system with R134a. We may have another 911 A/C tech session up here in the near future to do some more conversions.

Regarding the Fiesta del Porsche; if you register now ($100 per car) I believe the late fee of $25 is required. I'm not sure if the Sunday autocross ($25 per driver) is going to happen as there was some issue of the track being available but I think the rally is still on ($15 per participant). At a minimum it is fun to see all the Porsches parked in the Plaza. I'm still working most weekends on my project this month so I don't know if I'll make it down for any of the events.

Cheers, Jim

remove it and don't look back
 

Shrouded:

That's just my suggestion. When I had the opportunity to take out my a/c, I did so immediately. I think, unless you have a good-sized engine like a 3.6, a/c on a 911 really taxes the engine.

Plus, if any of it is shot, it costs big $$$ to fix.

I'm of the lighter car/rolled-down window philosophy: 50-75 pounds out of an SC is a great start. That might put your car down to maybe 2500, which isn't bad. As well, I've heard N.M. summers can be quite brutal, not to mention the thin air at that altitude - neither of which can be good for an air-cooled engine that's trying to run itself, a car and a/c at the same time.

Expensive R12???????????????????????????

You mean you didn't stock up on Freon when it was on sale for 3 can for $.99 at Pep Boy???????????????? Wink Wink

How much will it cost to cap the line now versus replacing all the lines later?

I had a non a/c Porsche and currently a a/c Porsche, and even though I do not live in a desert, I find it much better to have an a/c Porsche. If you remove the a/c it may be a selling point to a potential buyer later on that the car is not a/c.

If I want to drive around in a hot car I'll take one of the Lotus.

I'm considering the same thing for my 911 Rob. I also have a York compressor and from that little window in the fender well, it's completely empty. I'd rather not spend over a couple hundred bucks right now (maybe later, maybe) for A/C, but if I could check for leaks and then maybe refill with R12 (from somewhere) I'd be willing to do that kindof work also. Since I've never done any A/C work, how could I check my system for leaks to begin with?

i took the compressor, condensor, and all the lines to the smugglers box. i did however leave the fan assembly in, it works decent and a least keeps air moving around when still or moving slowly.

Actually, if the old lines are not leaking and the fittings are not marred they may be readily reused as the mineral oil in the R-12 systems coats the interior of the lines and greatly slows down the diffusion of the R-134a refrigerant. Since the mineral oil is not miscible with R-134a it tends to stay in place and continue sealing the old hoses. However, if one needs to replace hoses I agree that one should use the new barrier hose; I would only recommend reusing the old flare type fittings where one has to: such as the connections to the condenser and evaporator. Other places I would switch to the o-ring style (at the compressor and receiver/drier since the o-ring type are much less leak prone. Cheers, Jim

Re: Next Question...
 

None of the major components can be removed safely if there is still freon in the system. The evaporator, condensor and compressor are all under pressure if freon is still in the system. Even though the a/c system may not be cooling, it doesn't mean the system is out of freon. There are many reasons why a fully charge system may not be cooling, expansion valve not working correctly, dirt or water in the system, etc.

Okay, I'm one of those guys that if you drive in warm to hot weather in the daytime, you need your AC. If you're well dressed going anywhere important, do you need to smell and feel like a dog? Anyways in lieu of R12, did you know you could substitute propane in it's place? Works like a champ, equal or better efficiency than R12, and compatible with all the hoses and oil in the system. You only need about 14 oz to do a complete charge. The ideal mix is if you blended in about 20% isobutane. Some guys may raise all these issues about this and that and whatever, but it's mostly a lot of propaganda by the AC industry to profit on the new refrigerants. If Dupont was so concerned about the ozone layer, why is it still manufacturing R12? Just go to any AC shop in Mexico and you find plenty of cans and 30 lb tanks of it available cheap, and who's on the label, you guess it - Dupont. Anyways the new line of R12 substitutes you find marketed now in the back of magazines and on the internet are pretty much these cocktails of propane - the socalled hydrocarbon substitute. That is now that the government has legalized its use in automobiles.

Yeah, you just don't want to blow a hose. Keep that fire extinguisher handy!

When I want A/C, I ride one of my motorcycles!

Removing the a/c and backdating the heating system, has made my car a joy to work on. But I can understand folks who live in NM and CA etc.; they want/need a/c that works.

Mongo like AC.

I don't know what that little window in the fender well is for? Most conventional receiver / drier has the sight glass on top. And if you see bubbles in the sight glass it usually mean the system is low on freon. If you don't see bubbles in the sight glass it could mean the system is empty, full or over full.

Because the sight glass on a 911 is on the side and not on top, the sight glass in a 911 has a little ball that is suppose to rise if freon is flowing through the receiver. I think in order to get the ball to rise the system has to be running for at least 5 minute (stabilize the system) and the engine rpm has to be at 2000. I have never seen the ball in the sight glass rise, even though I know the system is fully charged.

If you don't have electronic sniffer to check for leaks, you can try using soap bubbles.

Check the thread looking to buy some R12 Freon. The guy had the propane isobutane gas install inhis 911 in lieu of R12 or R134a. I think he mentioned that it only cost him $75.00 to have the system evacuated and charge with the propane - isobutane mixture.

The fiance is away for a week so I can spend some time on the car. Out of curiosity, how does pulling out the A/C affect resale price?

Here's a thought. The whole system, with all of the hoses, fans, compressor, etc. weighs a bout 70 lbs. Getting rid of that weight is like adding horsepower, improving your brakes, and hadling all at once.

I too am considering removing the AC. In your experience do the AC shops know how to properly remove freon from a 911?? I wouldn't know where to point them... any pointers?
Rgds,
TT

The high side and low side valves are right there on the side of the compressor. I would imagine almost any A/C shop can evacuate the system for you no problem.

Don't take it out!
When I'm in the car, I don't use it. I roll the windows down because I don't like the power loss with the compressor on.
HOWEVER, my wife (as with most wives) likes the A/C on.

So you can have it both ways: Leave it on but turn it off!

I just finished removing the remnants of my AC, (hoses, smuggler box crap, and front condesor). I even got rid of the controls in the center consol. I don't want to even be reminded that it ever existed. It sounds like AC in a 911 is a never ending money pit. It is really simple why. The ENGINE is in the back and you need the COLD AIR to come out the front. This only can be attempted to be addressed by running enough lines in and out of your car to make the Alaska pipeline envious. Sure there are those that have cold air after much trials and tribulation. And for those that live in a hot climate, I feel for you. But if you don't, jettison it. Its amazing how once it's gone, it looks like it never existed.

I'd most definitely take it out. It doesn't work well enough for "many wives," and real P-car owners don't need it.

Of course, that's conjecture. Nevertheless, 50-70 lbs is a lot saved on these little cars. Also, it takes an arm and a leg to get it working correctly, if at all. You can put a newer, better system on, but in the case of an older 911, you don't really benefit until you get a newer dashboard with better venting.

When I removed mine, a big gaping hole was left when I ditched the under dash Behr unit. I simply routed a hose from that along the bottom of the dashboard, and voila, fresh air. Which is the best sort of air anyway.

Any! Any! Porsche that has had its climate controls removed is
not a canidate for me to even think about purchaseing. If the car
came with an option on the Cardex I would want it on the car and functioning before I would consider buying it. I don,t want an apology when I call about a car, just the condition and mileage
and make sure that all systems are functioning. I don't race and enjoy these oem features.

Keith Epperly

I think many, including myself, have resale value as a non issue with our cars. I'll never get what I put into it. Which is good, because I ain't selling it. I'm sure there are many 911's which have a perfectly original, unaltered, nonworking AC that they are selling.;)

Exactly my thoughts: half of the options that came on my car were removed either because they didn't work, or they simply took away from what I wanted the car to be. Again, I wouldn't hesitate removing the A/C.

Oh, and as far as resale value goes, resale in real estate, not Porsches.

Keith,

I would tend to agree with you. I'm not going to be tracking my car and someday I will want to get top dollar when I trade or sell it. It's easier to explain to a buyer that Porsche A/Cs never work that great and it is what it is as opposed to pointing to a large cardboard box and explaining that the A/C will be very costly to ever get running properly and oh, by the way, you need to find someone to put it back in before you even start troubleshooting it.

Ditch it!

Even after you've taken out a 2nd mortgage to get it working properly,
it's still not worth two gobs of billy-goat *****. :rolleyes:

I also live in Albuquerque and find it almost impossible to drive my porsche in the summer. Unless you plan on only using your car on the track or at nightduring the summer, I would recommend either leaving it installed or keeping the parts so you can change your mind. Better yet, pull everything out and I will come by to haul them away for you. I will be installing aftermarket A/C this month.