My First 911: Should it be a 930/G-50 or a 996?

[I Wanna 911]

Howdy, Everyone. My first post here.

The time is approaching for me to own my first Porsche 911. I have dreamed of one since I began working on air-cooled Beetles way back in the late sixties.

I always spend a lot of time doing research on major purchases, so I'm still probably a year of more away from buying the vehicle, but I've begun to narrow down the field. I have a limited budget, so I won't be pulling the trigger on some rare turbo model costing $250,000.

If possible, I would like to keep the purchase price under $30,000. I also like the idea of tinkering and doing some of the basic maintenance on the vehicle myself -- brakes, oil, plugs etc.

The car I REALLY want (and hope to someday own), is a 964, but as you know a clean one is about double my budget.

I don't mind the funky headlights on the 996 as much as everyone else seems to, so I've been leaning in that direction. Recently, however, I've begun to reconsider. My dream has always been an air-cooled 911 -- the genuine article -- not the water-cooled version, and I've been reading great things about G50 models from 1987-1989.

So that's kind of where I'm at. I'd love any insights you'd like to share.

One last thing. I live in the SFV area of L.A. and it can get over 100 degrees here in the summer. I'm a wimp in the heat and really need a decent A/C. If the factory A/C in the G-50 doesn't cut it, would I be correct in assuming that there are retrofit after-market units out there that will do the job? I don't mind paying extra for the comfort.

Thanks Very Much.

[hitch911]

May be hard to find a good 87-89 carrera for 30k or less and will be easier to find a 996 in that price range. 996's have superior AC systems but will not be as easy to wrench on as the G models. On the air cooled cars, many have advised getting a good rust free straight body is most important, everything else is easier to get sorted. Also you might have more of a fighting chance if you fancy a cabriolet as they seem to be more affordable than a coupe or targa in comparable condition right now. Good luck with the Hunt!

[-Levi-]

If you have a $30,000 budget a 930 or a g50 911 will be out of your price range, you can absolutely get a great 996 within your range.
You will want to get a pre purchase inspection and make sure the ims bearing has been taken care of or budget a few thousand for that work. With any 911, the best example purchased up front will save up you good money on the back end.

A good g50 911 will cost you $45,000 or more, a good 930 will be $75,000 or more. With both examples the “more” is probably more correct.

Also consider a 2011 or newer cayman s or a 968.

[I Wanna 911]

Originally Posted by hitch911

May be hard to find a good 87-89 carrera for 30k or less and will be easier to find a 996 in that price range. 996's have superior AC systems but will not be as easy to wrench on as the G models. On the air cooled cars, many have advised getting a good rust free straight body is most important, everything else is easier to get sorted. Also you might have more of a fighting chance if you fancy a cabriolet as they seem to be more affordable than a coupe or targa in comparable condition right now. Good luck with the Hunt!

Hitch, thanks so much for taking the time to post and respond. Our thinking lines up pretty well.

I tend to be very patient on things like this. Why not? I've waited more than forty years. So any older car like a G-50 I would definitely be wary of rust and have it inspected before purchase. I hear you all the way. Ideally, if and when I go the G-50 route, I would try to find a California-only car and even then would still want to pay a quality shop and have them go through it thoroughly.

BTW, I HAVE seen some G-50s on BaT going for around $30,000, but all with high mileages. My understanding is box the engine and the tranny on these vehicles, if well maintained, can run quite a long time. Just curious if you'd like to comment on mileage issues.

Thanks on the ragtop/cabriolet option, something I'm also considering. BTW, if one purchased a 911 cab with a bad top, would $2000 be about the right price for a new top?

Great feedback. Thanks so much.

Scott

[Larmo63]

If you have a $30,000.00 budget, you may find a 912, 996, 944, ragged SC, or a 914.

Boxters and older Caymans could be an option too, but the older the car, the more user friendly the wrenching will be.

Good luck with your search.

[I Wanna 911]

Originally Posted by -Levi-

If you have a $30,000 budget a 930 or a g50 911 will be out of your price range, you can absolutely get a great 996 within your range.
You will want to get a pre purchase inspection and make sure the ims bearing has been taken care of or budget a few thousand for that work. With any 911, the best example purchased up front will save up you good money on the bac be $75,000 or more. With both examples the “more” is probably more correct.

Also consider a 2011 or newer cayman s or a 968.

Yes, Levi, I totally agree on a quality pre-inspection from a respected shop before even considering a purchase. In fact I don't even mind throwing down a couple hundred bucks on a car I walk away from. I do know about the IMS bearing issues with the 996s and have read a lot about it. In fact, as you probably know, it's such common knowledge by now that most ads get in front of it by saying the IMS has already fixed.

And yes, I've been looking at Cayman's too. What a fabulous vehicle. I'm sure I'd be happy with that car as well. The 968 not so much.

If I do go with a 996 or a Cayman, it's possible this would be a stepping-stone vehicle to the air-cooled 911 I will eventually acquire.

Thanks So Much,
Scott

[I Wanna 911]

Originally Posted by Larmo63

If you have a $30,000.00 budget, you may find a 912, 996, 944, ragged SC, or a 914.

Boxters and older Caymans could be an option too, but the older the car, the more user friendly the wrenching will be.

Good luck with your search.

Yes, the Cayman would be a good car for me, I'm sure. Pretty much prefer a hard-top, so the Boxster not so much.

The 912 is definitely a sweet car, but I'm dead set on six cylinders. Of the list you provided, I keep coming back to the 996. Of my current options, that is clearly the value leader. I've even seen some 997s at the top of my price range.

Thanks So Much,
Scott

[hitch911]

Scott, good maintenance records are more important than low miles. There are plenty of really able mechanics who can rebuild your engine and tranny when needed. And yes the 3.0 and 3.2 engines are known for great longevity with proper maintenance and reliable as a hair brush.
Last time I checked you can buy a cabriolet canvas top from Pelican for around 1000-1200 bucks. Not sure how challenging the install is, but I'm guessing its quite.
Have you had the chance to drive an SC or 3.2 carrera? How bout a 996, Boxster or Cayman? If not, that might be a good next step to help you focus in on your search.

[paul_howey]

With the older cars, there is really no way around paying the price.

You can go with a cheaper high mileage example with some questionable history/mods or you can spend more on a lower mileage well-sorted car. Either way, you will end up spending about the same amount when it's all said and done. The cheaper car will just allow you to spend the money more slowly as you sort it.

The AC in these cars is horrible and I was told mine was one of the better examples. It feels about as refreshing as a dog panting in your face. I ended up pulling my AC.

IMO, go with a 996. I think it fits the budget better and will allow you to get into a 911 with the least amount of headaches.

[Tremelune]

The difference between a 996 and a pre-90s 911 is profound. An '88 911 feels more like a '73 911 than a 996. A 996 feels more like an E46 M3 than an 80s 911. This isn't to say one is better than the other, but I think you need to define your goals a bit better.

Air conditioning in a 996 is so much better than in an air-cooled car it's laughable. There are some people with stock 80s systems that are happy with them, but it's much more common to find examples that need about $5k in the form of a Classic Retrofit or Griffiths AC system to be daily-drivable in the Valley.

Today, $30k gets you very little air-cooled 911 and a whole lotta 996. For daily-driving (as opposed to 80% driving in mountains and canyons), I would put my money towards a 996 or Cayman over an air-cooled. You'll just get a lot more bang for that buck. Do do your due diligence on the IMS bearing. I expect most have been sorted one way or another by now, but they certainly were a problem on the earlier years.

Condition, documentation, and a good maintenance history are what you want. I would take a high-miles car with a great owner and a stack of records over any low-mile Porsche that has sat around for the last five years.

[paul_howey]

Originally Posted by Tremelune

The difference between a 996 and a pre-90s 911 is profound. An '88 911 feels more like a '73 911 than a 996. A 996 feels more like an E46 M3 than an 80s 911. This isn't to say one is better than the other, but I think you need to define your goals a bit better.

^ Totally agree with this.

If comparing G vs 964 or 964 vs 993 you can have a discussion about similarities and differences both good and bad... but G vs 996 is essentially 2 totally different cars.

Nothing wrong with the OP shopping based on budget but as Tremelune pointed out, these 911 generations are not ones to commonly be cross-shopped which signals to us that you need some seat time in both cars.

[Tremelune]

Final tidbit: I had a G50 coupe in LA. It just wasn't fun to drive around. It was incredibly fun to drive around the mountains and canyons, but if that's what you'll be doing, the cheaper '76-86 cars with the 915 transmission are just as fun as the G50s (it's mostly that 1st gear that sucks). Maybe good AC or less-trafficky driving time would've helped, but...I'd sooner have a $5k EV and another $25k classic over an air-cooled 911 daily-driver in LA...if you have the space!

[jons911]

My take as an owner of an SC and G50 Carrera:

Don't rule out a good condition SC as they are generally cheaper than the Carreras while still being everything you would expect from an aircooled 911. Before I rebuilt my Carrera, the driving between the two wasn't all that different. My SC has an aftermarket premuffler and muffler, so the sound is different, but not much else. The G50 vs the 915 is noticeable, but I've been daily driving my 915 for the last 5 years and while it's definitely tired, I'm still completely fine with it.

Drawbacks to the SC: CIS can be a pain if it needs attention. 915 gearbox is a considerable step down from the G50 for some people (not me). AC will almost certainly be poor if it's original.
Pros: Mileage is meaningless as long as it has been well cared for. My car is approaching 120k miles and the only real problem I have is it is starting to leak a bit more oil. If in good condition, CIS is pretty reliable. Mine is still going strong.

Drawbacks to the G50 Carrera: A good drivers car in my hunts through the classifieds is generally at least $40k, but easily getting up to $50k depending on condition you're looking for. High mileage is a concern on the 3.2 as the valve guides are known to wear. AC will also probably be poor if original, but that's pretty much any car. For what should have a considerable bump in power, I did not feel any performance difference compared to my SC on the street, so depending on your driving goals, something to keep in mind.
Pros: Full EFI which lends itself much easier to tuning for modifications. G50 in general tends to be a smoother gearbox and is definitely stronger.

Similarities: Both are G body cars, so any mechanical work/upgrades is going to be pretty similar between the two. The looks are pretty much identical. Both are susceptible to broken head studs. From what I've seen people posting here, it seems that if you have a higher mileage car with no broken studs, you're probably good. My Carrera had about 30k miles on it when I bought it and I pulled I think four broken studs during the rebuild.

[paul_howey]

Originally Posted by jons911

My take as an owner of an SC and G50 Carrera:

Don't rule out a good condition SC as they are generally cheaper than the Carreras while still being everything you would expect from an aircooled 911. Before I rebuilt my Carrera, the driving between the two wasn't all that different. My SC has an aftermarket premuffler and muffler, so the sound is different, but not much else. The G50 vs the 915 is noticeable, but I've been daily driving my 915 for the last 5 years and while it's definitely tired, I'm still completely fine with it.

Drawbacks to the SC: CIS can be a pain if it needs attention. 915 gearbox is a considerable step down from the G50 for some people (not me). AC will almost certainly be poor if it's original.
Pros: Mileage is meaningless as long as it has been well cared for. My car is approaching 120k miles and the only real problem I have is it is starting to leak a bit more oil. If in good condition, CIS is pretty reliable. Mine is still going strong.

Drawbacks to the G50 Carrera: A good drivers car in my hunts through the classifieds is generally at least $40k, but easily getting up to $50k depending on condition you're looking for. High mileage is a concern on the 3.2 as the valve guides are known to wear. AC will also probably be poor if original, but that's pretty much any car. For what should have a considerable bump in power, I did not feel any performance difference compared to my SC on the street, so depending on your driving goals, something to keep in mind.
Pros: Full EFI which lends itself much easier to tuning for modifications. G50 in general tends to be a smoother gearbox and is definitely stronger.

Similarities: Both are G body cars, so any mechanical work/upgrades is going to be pretty similar between the two. The looks are pretty much identical. Both are susceptible to broken head studs. From what I've seen people posting here, it seems that if you have a higher mileage car with no broken studs, you're probably good. My Carrera had about 30k miles on it when I bought it and I pulled I think four broken studs during the rebuild.

Excellent points. I agree the SC is a great option and you can find some very decent driver examples in the OP’s price range.

I love my G50 but a well sorted 915 is an excellent gearbox and I wouldn’t hesitate to own a car with one.

[hitch911]

915 trannys require more of a mindfulness and deft touch compared to G50's. I'd rather stick a pencil through my heart than drive a 915 in stop and go traffic! But out on an open country road its super fun and rewarding to be so involved with shifting and driving the car well. Just have to decide how and where you'll spend your time in the car to help narrow your search to a particular model.

[I Wanna 911]

Wow, thanks for all the terrific info. This is exactly the kind of in-depth G-2 that helps me focus my search.

I have a terribly busy day today, but I promise in a day or two to answer each of you more individually.

It looks like the 996 is back as my first option. I hear it's a terrific car (yet to spend some seat time, but will rent one to run it through its paces when the time comes). It won't ruin my life if I never own an aircooled 911. I know the good ones are in the $50-60K range and if it never happens I can live with it.

Thanks again, and I promise to return when time permits and add my responses.

Be Well,
Scott

[RarlyL8]

I've had the good fortune to have owned examples of all the cars you have listed. If staying within your budget there are only two 911 choices, a 996 or and SC. Contrary to popular belief a properly sorted 915 with fresh bushings and synchros shifts every bit as easy as a G50. I've had several of both and to me the only advantage to a G50 is the power level they can handle. Mid-year and SC's are great cars when everything is sorted. Note the theme? You have worked on air cooled cars in the past so no problem for you. The 996 is not the same in any way shape or form, it is a modern car. It feels like a 911 and handles incredible with all the comfort of a Lexus. If anything breaks it is $1K minimum bill so there is that. Air cooled 911's are orders of magnitude easier to work on. SO - what do you want, cool simple old car with charm that you can fiddle with or a cool modern 911 that you just drive anywhere because that's what they are, daily drivers?

[winders]

915 transaxles can shift very nicely. But, they need to be shifted more deliberately than a G50. The balk ring synchro design used by the 915 is just not as quick at synchronizing as the more modern Borg Warner synchro design.

I would kill to have a Borg Warner synchro setup in my 915. The 915 is just so damn slow on the race track. Well, at least if you want the synchros to live....

[kenzinger]

Just a data point, last year I picked up an '83 SC with 56k miles for $33k - head studs were good(!) but I've had to have all of the brakes rebuilt, brake lines replaced, new alternator, fan, and fan housing, new ignition coil, CDI, wires, plugs, distributor cap and rotor, valve adjustment, and a bunch of oil leaks fixed for ~$10k. Running like a dream now!

[boomvang]

I am lucky enough to own both a 996.2 and an '83 SC. The newer car is much faster stock, handles like it's glued to the ground and as others have noted, is a modern car in most ways that count, while still retaining that 911 rear-engined feel. That said, it lacks the hand built quality of the SC, and is more difficult, but not impossible,to wrench. if you have not already, I suggests checking out the 996 forum on Rennlist, a good group of people and a great resource for information.
The older car is much more visceral, the sounds and smells, the feel of the steering is it's own reward. Good luck in your hunt.