WebCam 20/21 questions

[Aircooled4evr]

Hey guys

I have some questions about WebCam 20/21 camshafts.

First, do I really have to upgrade the valvetrain? I already have new OEMs.
Do any of you have first-hand experience with them? maybe on an SC 3.0? what do they "do" for your engine?

Are they bad for MPG? (or kml ... I'm from Europe) Maybe this is a "weird" question, but I have my reasons/ideas ...
I was considering using 964s but have been offered a set of WebCam 20/21 at a good price.
I really want to hear your stories- experiences!


Here are my engine specs:
1979 engine block: boat tail web
Crank: standard 70.4mm. Alu pressure plate. Standart lightened and polished connecting rods (-100g each)
95mm wössner, or JE pistons. 11.3: 1 compretion (as light as you can get them, so I'm leaning towards wössner)
Exhaust: SSI. 2 in 2 out muffler. (the one I have is right through ... so I'll probably modify it slightly ... for the sake of my neighbors)
dual ignition, MS3 box, knock sensor.
Individual throttle body, and homemade intake manifold, their length is determined by final choice of cam, muffler, etc.

Cheers, mads
aka. Aircooled4evr

[Bill Douglas]

Would you be using them with SSIs or similar?

[Aircooled4evr]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

Would you be using them with SSIs or similar?

Sorry ... totally forgot to give general info of the engine! thanks for the reply Bill Douglas!
I will add the information in my starting post!

[Sboxin]

Originally Posted by Aircooled4evr

Hey guys

I have some questions about WebCam 20/21 camshafts.

First, do I really have to upgrade the valvetrain? I already have new OEMs.
Do any of you have first-hand experience with them? maybe on an SC 3.0? what do they "do" for your engine?

Are they bad for MPG? (or kml ... I'm from Europe) Maybe this is a "weird" question, but I have my reasons/ideas ...
I was considering using 964s but have been offered a set of WebCam 20/21 at a good price.
I really want to hear your stories- experiences!


Here are my engine specs:
1979 engine block: boat tail web
Crank: standard 70.4mm. Alu pressure plate. Standart lightened and polished connecting rods (-100g each)
95mm wössner, or JE pistons. 11.3: 1 compretion (as light as you can get them, so I'm leaning towards wössner)
Exhaust: SSI. 2 in 2 out muffler. (the one I have is right through ... so I'll probably modify it slightly ... for the sake of my neighbors)
dual ignition, MS3 box, knock sensor.
Individual throttle body, and homemade intake manifold, their length is determined by final choice of cam, muffler, etc.

Cheers, mads
aka. Aircooled4evr

We went to Webcams 20/21 for better torque numbers - - but in a 964 3.6/3.8L w/JE 12.5 pistons on 100 Oct fuel - race car - direct replacement of OEM cams . . .w/ headers (no muffler) stock intake, crank and rods balanced, Wong dyno tuned chip . . .

Wish you the best on your engine build,
Regards
EDIT:
Agree with Ted . . . we did send cams and rockers to WebCam for refresh/modify
"should replace with new polished rockers when going to another new cam or used cam to allow work hardening process to repeat itself. "

[3rd_gear_Ted]

The cam rockers are work hardened and worn in from the first camshaft and the bushings are worn too, should replace with new polished rockers when going to another new cam or used cam to allow work hardening process to repeat itself.

[Aircooled4evr]

Originally Posted by 3rd_gear_Ted

The cam rockers are work hardened and worn in from the first camshaft and the bushings are worn too, should replace with new polished rockers when going to another new cam or used cam to allow work hardening process to repeat itself.

Originally Posted by Sboxin

Agree with Ted . . . we did send cams and rockers to WebCam for refresh/modify
"should replace with new polished rockers when going to another new cam or used cam to allow work hardening process to repeat itself. "

Thank you guys.

Fortunately, I was already going to do this myself, with a little help from my friends (not The Beetles)
So I don't need stronger valve springs then?

[Aircooled4evr]

have any of you experienced with WebCam 20/21 and valve springs? Original or other?

[Superman]

I have those cams. Stock valve springs. I left the rockers alone. There is controversy about the wisdom of resurfacing those. I LOVE these cams. The dyno guy stared at my power band, saying it looks like a V8 graph. Shaped like a table. Good, smooth power all the way from 1500 rpm to redline. Very driveable. If you are looking to squish all the power into the highest RPM bands, this is not the cam for you. If you are looking for good torque throughout the RPM range, then you will like these cams.

Also, in the early sixties there was emphasis on the "beat" of the new pop music. A band incorporated that nomenclature into its name. BEATles. Not beetles.

[mike sampsel]

I went with new OEM springs based on discussions with the gent doing my heads. Web cam stated stock valve springs are fine with the 20/21 cams.

So I’ve stock springs. All seems well with my first 400 miles on my rebuild
Changed exhaust, pistons and cylinders to 3.2 with 9.5 CR ratio. The car feels hungry.
Oh and I replaced all rockers which were not shiny smooth with ones which were.

[Aircooled4evr]

okay okay ... Beatles! Superman vs. Aircooled4evr 1-0

[Aircooled4evr]

Originally Posted by Superman

I have those cams. Stock valve springs. I left the rockers alone. There is controversy about the wisdom of resurfacing those. I LOVE these cams.

Originally Posted by mike sampsel

I went with new OEM springs based on discussions with the gent doing my heads. Web cam stated stock valve springs are fine with the 20/21 cams.

Many thanks to you both! Then I'll try too!

[mnez]

Also been using 20/21's with stock valve train for many years now with no problems. Road and track use.

[timmy2]

Good read on springs here:
A Performance killer in these small power output engines.

[Rusty Heap]

My 82 SC had Web 20/21's. SSI's and Monty single out muff.


Cams are very nice improvement over stock.


Fully usable torque below 4K rpm and 5-7K is heaven. fast rev, no regrets. all stock valve springs.

do it.

[Aircooled4evr]

Thanks for your input!
I have been confirmed in my idea to use WebCam 21/21
They are now on the table, waiting to be fitted together with the rest of the new engine parts!

[Roger 911]

I'm thinking about these for my basically stock 3.2 (cat bypass, modified OEM muffler). My question is whether the 20/21s require a custom chip/programming for the ECU. I have a Steve Wong chip now. Will this work?

[Glenfield]

You might be able to get away with a hotter cam on motronic? These cams were designed for CIS from memory. They maxed out the overlap, had high lift and short duration. Setup so as not to wreak havoc with the airflow sensor on CIS. I have them in a stock 3.0L and they certainly eeked a little more out and would highly recommend them to anyone looking to do not much to a 3.0L

[Roger 911]

Originally Posted by Glenfield

You might be able to get away with a hotter cam on motronic? These cams were designed for CIS from memory. They maxed out the overlap, had high lift and short duration. Setup so as not to wreak havoc with the airflow sensor on CIS. I have them in a stock 3.0L and they certainly eeked a little more out and would highly recommend them to anyone looking to do not much to a 3.0L

Maybe, but I think the limiting factor is piston/valve clearance. The SC/Carrera have very similar pistons. I'm good with the 20/21 profile, just want to see if anyone has any feedback on the ECU fuel map compatibility with these cams, especially with a Steve Wong Chip.

[Lyle O]

You should check with Steve Wong. When I rebuilt my engine several years ago I included the 20/21 cams (they are great, BTW), Steve re-did the chip for me (I went to 3.4, MM pistons, etc.). Not sure what he changed specifically because of the new cams, though, but I have to assume it mattered.

[Roger 911]

Originally Posted by Lyle O

You should check with Steve Wong. When I rebuilt my engine several years ago I included the 20/21 cams (they are great, BTW), Steve re-did the chip for me (I went to 3.4, MM pistons, etc.). Not sure what he changed specifically because of the new cams, though, but I have to assume it mattered.

I did send him an e-mail a few days ago, waiting to hear back. I've read that the Motronic system can accommodate and adjust for some changes, such as a slight displacement increase. I suspect the combination of cams AND increased displacement was outside that margin.