Experience w/ "Reputable Mechanic", Part I. Rip off?
 

So I needed the oil return tubes replaced on my '87 930. Tubes were leaking onto the exhaust and smoking off--dirty, embarrassing, and potentially unsafe; so had to be done asap. Area was pretty oily obviously, but there was very little if any corrosion at all.

"Reputable mechanic" estimated 3 hours ($160/hr) plus parts and misc. for a total of around $850 if could avoid removing the exhaust on the left side; plus the cost of removal/replacement if it had to come out. Sounded fair and consistent with Wayne Dempsy's estimate of 1-2 hours/side so I dropped off the car in the evening with a promised turnaround of 2 days.

Next day "reputable mechanic" calls to confirm that the oil return tubes were in fact leaking, but the exhaust would have to come out, possibly bringing the total to "close to $2000," especially if he ran into trouble with rust, etc. This would involve 1 hour to "clean" the area prior to heating the bolts, 2 hours to heat them, and three hours to remove and reinstall the exchanger, plus "whatever comes up." Total max 9 hours.

I made the mistake of accepting these terms with the understanding that he would adjust the total according to the time it actually takes to do it. Since there wasn't any meaningful corrosion, I didn't think it would be a huge challenge for a pro with his experience. And honestly, with the car smoking like a chimney and my need to get it done, I didn't feel like pulling the plug, so I trusted him to be reasonable. Even with the full 9 hours of labor, couldn't see how he'd get to $2000.

Yet it did come to $2098. Below is how he arrived at that total. I'd like to know if you guys think this is fair. You won't hurt my feelings; I'd like to know if my discomfort with this bill is misplaced (notwithstanding the other issue, which I'll discuss in part II).

**"Wash and clean under engine area from oil leaking mainly from oil return tubes and spreading all around lower part of engine." $160

It's visibly cleaner, but not exactly "washed" and "cleaned." Half-ass job at best, but whatever. I guess this had to be done prior.

**"Remove and install left heat exchanger " $320

This seems reasonable.

**"Loose and retourgue oil feeding line connector to crankcase.**

Maybe this had to be done, maybe not. $80? I don't know if that's fair.

**Additional time to torch and cut exhaust and air injection line as needed** $160

This is part of the removal and installation process that supposedly took two hours. So in fact 3 hours to remove and install left heat exchanger. Is that typical? nearly $500 to remove and replace one heat exchanger, not including the "cleaning" step?

**Remove oil from crankcase + replace oil return tubes + reinstall oil** $480.

3 hours for a highly experienced, professional mechanic to pop in the expandable oil return tubes? I've seen Porsche mechanics on youtube do it in a few minutes. What do you guys think?

**install small metal clamp in left CV joint axle outer boot** $40

Ok.

**Weld crack in exhuast pipe flange lower left part** $160

Wasnt aware of this issue, but ok.

Total labor: $1560.

Parts including oil return tubes and new gaskets, plus a bunch of nickel and dime stuff: $508.03. I provided 4 quarts of oil 15w/50 and he added 3 more, 0w/40.

Result is that the oil return tubes are no longer leaking, so that aspect of the job seems to have been well done. However there is now a minor, but previously unnoticed leak from around the crankshaft (not sure if it's related to the $80 "retorque"), and the car seems to be running hotter (overfill?).

Would like your opinions on this and other "reputable Porsche mechanics. Am I wrong to think this bill was excessive or is this par for the course.

if i replace oil return tubes it takes me 1/2 hour.No heat exchanger needs to be removed period,if you are skilled Porsche 911-930 mechanic..Find someone who knows its job...
I c ,you already have him do the job,oh well
When living in LA i charged 100 bucks an hour ,tubes cost around 130 for all of them.that would put you in 230 bucks...

Ivan

ps.why did the re torque the heads absolutely not necessary..

your price for tubes from our host
https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/93010704001.htm?pn=930-107-040-01-INT&SVSVSI=807&fs=0

Had mine done 3 years ago using collapsible tubes. Did a transmission oil change at same time and a valve cover gasket replacement for oil leakage. No removal of exhaust/headers needed nor any other extraneous issues. Labor was 9brs but at $82/per so just over $1,000 total. I don’t know what is “fair” but I considered doing it myself and was very happy to hand over the $1,000…..

This bothers me..

"I provided 4 quarts of oil 15w/50 and he added 3 more, 0w/40. "

good eye...^^^^^^^this^^^^^^

In fairness a lot of oil had leaked, so it was low. But I had specifically told him only to add the oil I provided to account for the lost oil because i was planning to immediately do an oil change anyway. He said he had to add more as a precaution.

Fix leaky seals for $145 done
 

At my shop this was a Saturday morning repair.The customer would wait and help.The car arrives warm.Let it sit for 15 minutes then jack up the rear and spray underneath with Gunk degreaser.Rinse and send customer for ride to dry and burn off excess residue.Upon return put on the lift and let cool a few mintes.Then take a spray can of Brakleen with spray nozzle and clean all the 8 o-ring areas.Use compressed air and blow dry.Next take a can of Carbcleaner with spray nozzle and spray all 8 areas.Do not blow dry.Wait 15 minutes and repeat.Wait 15 more and spray one more time.The carb cleaner swells the seals like the pekker of an old man on Viagra.Cost is $150 and good for 1-2 years.Customer rapport is priceless.Has never failed.Ciao Fred

So what should i do about it, if anything?

@Ivan that's how i feel about it. he's supposedly an expert.

So the $850 quote evolved to an actual $2,100 bill?

Correct

I really think you are getting worked up about nothing.

I'm not really up on my 930s, so I googled for a pic. First off, I can't see how you'd change tubes on a 930 without taking off the left side heat exchanger:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1626956410.jpg

Secondly, have you ever performed any exhaust work on a 30+ year old car? There are plenty of jobs I'd rather do, nobody but nobody is going to make up the need to do this unless it's necessary.

I'd say he treated you fairly, if anything. I wouldn't say "rip-off".

Fair enough, Johnny, but shouldn't he have known that when he originally estimated $850? I mean presumably he's done this job before, no? And even if the exchanger had to come off, did it take him 10 hours and over $500 in parts for this little project? I dont know. Once the heat exchanger was off, should it have taken a pro with 30 years experience 3 hours to pop in the tubes?

I empathize with your frustration. Whenever I bring my car (1977 S) to my mechanic who I trust very much and have been very satisfied with, I just expect the cost to be more than then initial quote. There are just so many unforeseen issues with these old cars that a single stud can turn an afternoon project into a three day ordeal.

That said, I’m in the service industry and I can’t simply call up my clients and say “whoops, I as the professional underestimated and now you have to pay me more money to cover my costs and mistakes”. If I miss the estimate I eat the cost.

Now of course there are limits, say if the mechanic finds that inside the oil return tubes there are legos, well that’s just ****ty for everyone and understanding and grace should be had by all.

I don’t have any advice other than to go for a long drive and remember why you love that car in the first place. Petrol therapy.

Incidentally, I'm not that worked up now. Mediterranean temperament. it comes and goes. :)

You're right showdown. Thats probably the best advice. Thanks for allowing me to vent, guys. I don't use shops that often, so maybe I'm just out of touch with what's common for these jobs. My only reference points were a few youtube videos and the Pelcian tech article. I expected 1-2 hours/side and about $300 in parts. Maybe that was just unrealistic in the Porsche service culture.

Finding shops that really know and understand air-cooled Porsches is not that easy. The best indicator is the number and kind of cars in their shop/lot. I then talk to the mechanics and the owner. That was how I found the shop I use, Pacific Power Motorsports in Walnut Creek, CA. I have had my car in a few times for what turned out to be minor issues and Eric has always been honest.

If you take the left only exchanger off the job will take 15 minutes both sides, if you know what you are doing...period

And yes,it is quite challenging to replace the left side but with the right knowledge and tools the job is done no time....
Ivan

Also if he is an expert could take a picture of the bottom so we can see if he had installed the tubes the correct way??I have my suspicions now;-))))

Ivan

I see words like “torch”, “cut” and “weld” on that bill. Your car didn’t cooperate one bit. There was far more than R&R of some oil tubes involved.

What’s your time worth? For a home mechanic to do this would have been your whole weekend, both days.

I’m also reading their labor rate at $160/hr? Most shops only bill in. 15 minute increments. It’s very common. So if replacing a clamp, was a 9 minute job? 1/4 hr. Standard practice.

I honestly see nothing wrong with the bill. And yes, it’s very common for cleaning the oil off an old 911 engine to reveal the source of another unknown leak, in this instance from the crankcase.