Best candidate for a 3.6 conversion?

[frostback]

Long time lurker first time poster. I had the pleasure of attending the R-Gruppe meet last weekend and my early 911 bug has developed into a full blown infection. My preliminary plans are to do a 3.6 conversion on a 67 911r clone. I plan to drive this vehicle daily I think the 3.6 is my best bet for everyday reliability.

My question is what should I be looking for as a base for this project? Is a 912 an option? I know the oil tank and engine mounts are different. I'm not sure how this will affect a conversion.

Is a SWB model a good candidate? Will it be too much of a handful with this much power? Can I get enough tire under R flares?

Ideally I would like to be able to drive the base car for a few months while I formulate a plan of attack and aquire all the pieces.

Thankyou for all the info I've already gleaned from this board.

Also I have a number of photos taken last weekend ( my favorite below ) if anyone knows an easy way for me to share them let me know.

Derek

[Kevin Stewart]

If your going to do a 3.6 you might as well try and find a car with a bad motor, you will want ar least a 915 tranny, and about 12k for the 3.6 and parts you need, Kevin

[pwd72s]

Kurt Z's car sure fosters a lot of dreams, doesn't it? With the weight & torque of a 3.6, I'd suggest going with a longer wheelbase car. I agree with the 915 trans suggestion. To get the trans with the car means '72 or '73...unless, of course, you wish to go the bumpercar look.

[dd74]

You can get middle year Porsches cheaper than early years. They aren't as desireable. And yet some of the suspension componentry on the mid-years is lighter. If you can get your hands on a '74, you'll get the 915 transmission with the 7.31 ring and pinion, which with a 3.6, will be smokin' fast. Just shift nice!

A later mid-year, like 75-77 would also be nice. Wouldn't have to worry about the ring and pinion with the later style 915 transmission.

[frostback]

I really have my mind set on an early car. What other reliable engine choices might net me over 200hp reliably in an early 911. I'm wanting to strip it down and go as light as possible

[dd74]

Originally posted by frostback
I really have my mind set on an early car. What other reliable engine choices might net me over 200hp reliably in an early 911. I'm wanting to strip it down and go as light as possible

Three liter.

[nostatic]

I think there are a couple of ways to go, but I don't think putting a 3.6 in a SWB would be one of them. If you start with an early car you should be able to build a 3.0 that is over 200hp and will be reliable. Another way to go is to follow Curt A's lead and take a later car (in his case an '88 I believe) and backdate it with a 3.6. If you start with an '87-89 car, you get a G50 tranny, gobs of torque, and less rust worries.

[ted]

With a 3.6 you might want a little more tire too.
Here's my 69 with 255/40/17 and 275/40/17 Victor racers.
In Ca 74 and older are smog test exempt or get a nice SC tub and keep the engine stock and it will still pass.
Really depends which style 911 you prefer, early of late?

It's gonna fit alot easier in my 911 when I take it out of the crate.

[frostback]

Ted that is one sweet ride. I snapped a few shots of your car at comfort inn as well. I love the red anodized wheels. Where did you get them done at? I've often thought a silver 911 with bronze anodized wheels would look pretty good.

[frostback]

Now about a 3.0, would that be with MFI? I'm not concerned with smog. I plan to buy a car while I still live in Cali but I will be moving back to B.C. soon. Are Webers to finicky for a daily driver? Will a G50 slip into an early car without to much trouble? Thanks again for all the input.

[ted]

Thanks the red wheels are not for everyone. They look fine at the track. The red wheels I had done in town, cost $160 to polish the centers and outer halves, then another $160 to have it all anodized red.

Carbs are good for max hp at max throttle...
I'd stay with injection, just turn the key on a cold morning and it works perfect every time. Much better gas milage too.

can't go wrong with something like this.

[dd74]

If you're intent on a 3.6, get this:

F/S 1974 911s

and something like this:

1976 915 Transmission

and your last bit of shopping should be done here:

http://instant-g.com/Products/36Conversion/index.html

[Jack Olsen]

Regarding Ted's red wheels, I never really liked them when I saw them in pictures. But they look great in real life.

And on topic, I think a 72 or 73 would be your best bet, with a backdated 74 next in line. The heavier motor in a SWB car would be a pain in the neck.

[frostback]

I was kinda thinking the 3.6 wouldn't work well with the SWB. So if I were to get a 72 or 73 what mods should I consider for the 915 other than a shifter. How much would a LSD help with the extra power.

I like the narrow body look but I guess I would need at least rs flares to do a 3.6 and get enough tire under it right?

I feel if I do go smaller than the 3.6 I will regret it down the road.
I already had instant-g bookmarked as the way to go. I more or less had to decide what to put it in. I can't go newer than 73. It's the same reason I never looked at VW's if they were newer than 67. The bumper laws took alot away.

Can a car like this be built right for $20-25K total?

[ted]

Now if we were at the Comfort Inn parking lot surrounded by R Gruppe cars drinking beers kicking tires and telling lies this would be my 2 cents.

>>How much would a LSD help with the extra power.

Car's do funny things without the LSD. Certainly at an AX where you frequently pitch and catch the rear of the 911 you are going to miss the LSD. Common drawback to performance driving without an LSD is spinning the inside rear wheel when exiting corners. Without the LSD it is common to execute a turn perfectly only to spin the inside tire, then have to lift off the gas to stop the spinning. With the 3.6 power a non LSD car would suffer greatly.

>>I like the narrow body look but I guess I would need at least rs flares to do a 3.6 and get enough tire under it right?

This brings up the big sleeper idea. If you are only going to drive it on the street any narrow body chassis will be fine I suppose.
On the street all we do is get around the corners and drag race down the straights.
On the track though every inch of rubber you can get translates to higher cornering speeds. The sleeper thing with the VW bugs made some sense if going 110mph in a bug makes sense.

Imho a 911 can be made to handle fairly well, I'd consider building a big hp car and optimizing handling too.

>>I feel if I do go smaller than the 3.6 I will regret it down the road. I already had instant-g bookmarked as the way to go. I more or less had to decide what to put it in.

A 3.2 would save you some $$ in conversion costs. Still they miss the torque/ bottom end and mid range of the 3.6. Many 3.6 conversion drivers refer to this as a nicely balanced combo.

>>I can't go newer than 73.

Do you plan to ever race it or will it be a street car mainly?
Here’s a nice idea for a street car.
Any 89? and older can be backdated, the 3.6 shot above is from this R Gruppe 88? that was back dated. Weigh the costs on the 72/73 tub.
You have several options, here's another.
If mainly street a Carrera 3.2 for high teens might be a "nice car to drive", for a while. The front fenders/ hood/bumper could be backdated at a later time, maybe with some fiberglass parts if you want to go lighter? The rear flares are there so a new rear bumper could be added later.
The 3.6 conversion parts and engine can be collected. When its time to swap the 3.2 engine in the car may be worth 5K or more?
More concepts..Maybe you can find a cheaper 77 tub add rear flares and back date, or a blown up 78 930 shell for an RSR/IROC look car.

>>It's the same reason I never looked at VW's if they were newer than 67. The bumper laws took alot away.

Check out the 88 carrera, anything is possible.

>>Can a car like this be built right for $20-25K total?

That # would be hard to hit including an unrestored $5k 73 911 T platform.
Cost of the conversion alone is gonna be half that or more. Perhaps if you can do all the work yourself. For those $$ you could get a car and do the conversion but later you will want to budget for basic restoration issues and suspension/brake upgrades too.

It's called the slipery slope...

We all know the best deal is a car with the conversion complete
for hopefullly not much more than that.

88 backdated ..


Here's the old 930 shell backdated.

[frostback]

What kind of weight difference is there between a backdated 911 and an early 911? I may eventually get this car out to a track day or driving school but primarily a street car. I just want a light weight bare bones powerhouse that I'm not going to get bored with any time soon. No stereo, no AC, no PW,PL PS. I like the idea of backdating a newer car if I can keep the weight down. So should I look for a good deal on a tired 74-83 and upgrade as I replace? I do plan to do as much as I can myself. Thanks again for all the great ideas!

[ted]

Good question regarding later cars and how difficult is it to get them as light at an early LWB tub.

Question is what do the different year tubs weigh?
Maybe some of the guys that have built track/street cars from the later cars could answer that better?

The newer cars have steel beam doors and electric windows.
A sunroof is heavier and it raises the CG too.

If you are going to make it a serious track car the lighter old tubs might be the weigh to go. Yes lighter car = higher cornering speeds too.
here's a good start..regarding what's it weigh.
http://www.early911sregistry.org/jCalzia.html
Important to some, early tubs were not galvanized.

My 69 911 weighs 2200lbs with half a tank of gas. I could drop another hundred easy with aluminum solid mounts, no passenger seat, plexi windows and removing the interior vent/fan system.
It is great fun on the track though I rarely drive it on the street.
When I do drive it on the street I wear ear plugs.
No radio or AC/heater, race seats, high reving and howling close ratio gears, solid trans and engine mounts, no insulation, stiff suspension, Pagid orange pads that need heat to work well, minimal ground clearance.
It'll beat you up on the streetbut it's my favorite car for on the track.

Track vs street the great compromise.
Now Jacks BBII car has AC too.
That has to be a relief on the way home from a track located in the desert after a hot day racing.

[frostback]

I'm used to bare bones and noisy. Here is a pic of my current daily driver. I only wear earplugs on long freeway hauls, but I enjoy raw vehicles. This fills the utility needs, now I need something to fill the sport role.

[ted]

What is that a Moge? or something? Looks like a good hunting truck. You have the hounds already. My neighbor is into it, appears to have bambi on his wall.

Back to Porsches...
Put some steak on it! make mine raw too.

I've had a couple total compromise cars that were not raw enough to be real fast yet they were just raw enough to give you a bad case of road burn after 30 minutes. With this 911 I figured I only like to drive them on the street for half hour blast at a time, the wife almost never rides along so this time I choose to develop more track qualities.

No regrets for me, the most my wife has rode with me was for a 30 minute session at Laguna Seca a week ago. We didnt miss any of the interior options for that half hour.
In fact afterwards her first words were "I'll never question you about buying new tires again".

Now a nice plush $$993 street car would be fine too.
I'll settle for new race tires, for now.

Now your hunt begins for the right platform at the right price??

[frostback]

It's a Pinzgauer. Made in Austria by Steyr Daimler Puch. It's aircooled so I was sold. I don't hunt or anything, just like to go wheeling.

I'm off to scour the classifieds again. Thanks for all your help. I'll probably have many more questions and feel very lucky to have a resource like this board to help me make more educated choices. Hopefully I can pull something together for next years R-Gruppe meet.