Trouble shooting an issue with the horns.

[theiceman]

Not particularly looking for advice. But wanted to share a particularly frustrating electrical problem ..

Horn intermittently doesnt work. I discovered that as I weave back and forth the horn will start and cut out..
So you are thinking dead easy the horn contact right ? i did too , rebent it for better contact still does it .. hmmm. so i took off the pickup ring off the wheel thinking broken wire intermittently making contact .. same problem...
so then i'm like screw it , bought a new copper contactor .. same problem .. hmm getting interesting.. replace relay , same problem think more about vibration than steering . , nope, spread apart contacts on relay in case it was the socket, same problem .. odd thing it is 100% when parked but cuts in and out while driving .. okay time to drag out the meter...
.. i wanted to check G5 ground point but i couldnt even find that , says on plate under filler but no where to be seen ..

so out comes the meter as you can imagine how impressed my neighborhood is as i try to fix this.. very first think i noticed is steering column is isolated from chassis ground, just checked against the door frame. not sure if it is correct or not but as soon as i touch the horn wire to it the horn goes off so obviously not an issue..

So i put my meter on the horn wire and against the steering column . 12v .. i turn the wheel side to side and the meter is all over the place.. ( this is actually where a real meter with a needle would be helpful ) ,, i see digits all over the place.. obviously odd but im not sure what to expect .. not sure what a known good looks like but this cant be a coincidence since my horn keeps cutting out.
So this is where it gets interesting..
... so with the ignition on i move wheel side to side and meter is jumping like a jumping jack .. turn ignition off,,, needle is jumping like a jumping jack on wheel turn .. i pull the key very slightly so the key in alarm stops. now when i move the wheel side to side .. 12.5v solid .. meter doent even move .1v..

so this is a VERY interesting one ....

next steps....

1. see if i can actually find this G5 ground connection.
2. connect a bulb up to the horn and disconnect the horns so people will love me again .. and just watch for a light going on and off.. i figure just tape wires to the body and run inside the car as a test .
3. disconnect horn contactor and run a wire up through the middle of the wheel connect to my own button and ground it ( bypassing contactor and pick up ring )
4. investigate the key pull.. i think it may be grounding the centre column by activating the steering lock by pressing against it when i pull the key ... it just doesnt lock until it hits the detent .. so that would tell me maybe i do still have a grounding issue with the column.. im not sure if there is a ground cable for the steering column anywhere. ( maybe that G5 again )


anyway just thought i would share an interesting problem , will update as i go .

[proporsche]

i think you might have a ground issue... i what used to do it use feeler gauges plate ,make a hole in it and attach to the bode and against the steering shaft inside the smuggler box. So the feeler acts as an additional ground for the shaft. The feeler rides in the shaft
Ivan

[theiceman]

Originally Posted by proporsche

i think you might have a ground issue... i what used to do it use feeler gauges plate ,make a hole in it and attach to the bode and against the steering shaft inside the smuggler box. So the feeler acts as an additional ground for the shaft. The feeler rides in the shaft
Ivan

so the centre of that shaft should be chassis ground at all times Ivan ?? i agree looking like an intermittent ground. I like your ground idea, much like the horn contact .. do you know where this G5 ground is ? or how the steering shaft was meant to be grounded ?

[john walker's workshop]

Yup, done that fix a few times. Continuity lost through the u-joints, until the shaft is moved a bit.

[proporsche]

sorry iceman i do not know what is G5-..............yes as John said in better words....
..hopefully you do not mean the G5 signal;-))))

Ivan

[theiceman]

Thanks John /Ivan

G-5 is the ground location for the horns, but looks like you guys have identified my issue .. anyone have a pic of that fix i would appreciate it ? i could probably figure it out but if there is a pic out there it could make life easier.. thanks Gents.

PS would all make sense that everything works fine after i pull the key out as the shaft is instantly grounded when the steering lock pawl engages.

[proporsche]

if you do not get the pic by tomorrow my time,
i will show you on my 911 how to go about it ,where to place the feeler..i`d use 1mm size..
Ivan

[proporsche]

funny i just found my old post ....here

Help! Why would my tachometer needle move when I hit the horn

[theiceman]

thanks Ivan ill go read it over ..

[theiceman]

okay update ... .progress thanks to you guys .. but now wondering .. i rigged up a test solution , i just clamped a wire to the steering shaft and grounded it in the smugglers box. went for a drive and horn worked perfectly so you guys were bang on the money with the grounding of the steering shaft.
But one thing puzzles me ... if it were due to the universal joints why would it not still occur ? as i mounted the bracket between the two, would it not make sense that the upper universal joint would be causing just as much an issue as the lower one ? yet it works perfectly with the upper one still in the circuit... .
So then i thought could it be a bearing of some kind ? but the steering bearing is encased in rubber insulator anyway .

hmmm..

anyway thanks for all your help guys and keeping me on track ... my non elegant proof of principle.

[theiceman]

[wrxnofx]

Originally Posted by john walker's workshop

Yup, done that fix a few times. Continuity lost through the u-joints, until the shaft is moved a bit.

So over the years, through usage, the joints wear ever so slightly, causing a bit of slop/continuity loss?

How did you fix, John? Replace the steering shafts?

[theiceman]

Originally Posted by wrxnofx

So over the years, through usage, the joints wear ever so slightly, causing a bit of slop/continuity loss?

How did you fix, John? Replace the steering shafts?

look at post 8 . in that link is the fix . very ingenious if you ask me