What is cost to replace front suspension pan

Number1_dog · 03-25-2010, 05:00 AM

1979 911SC -I just removed my gas tank front support panel to replace it when I discovered that the previous owner, a Porsche Mechanic from Connecticut, had cut out a piece (about 7 inches by 8 inches) of the left side, under the battery, of the front suspension pan where the torsion bar wishbone mounts. He welded in, rather sloppily, a rust free piece, bigger than the piece he cut out so it is welded on the underside of the suspension pan around the piece he put in. He did not fit in the new piece to be flush with the rest of the panel. I also discovered a 3 inch hole filled with some hardened liquid goop where the tow hook use to be. I believe replacement of this pan to be beyond my skills.

I was wondering what the cost to have it professionally replaced in the New York City area would be. Does any one have any ideas ? Recommendations for who can do it in this area?

Thanks for your replies.
dog

berettafan · 03-25-2010, 05:16 AM

Ugh, hate to hear stories of repairs like that.

General range when i was looking (ended up doing it myself) was roughly $1500-$2300.

Number1_dog · 03-25-2010, 05:43 AM

It just took me 1 1/2 years to complete my engine re-build and I just got the engine back in. I then took out 17 gallons of 2 year old gas and removed the gas tank with the intention of just cleaning it when I discovered that it was welded by rust to the front support panel. Then when I removed the front support panel....

I could try to do it myself but I figured it would take me all summer and another year without the 911. I've been autocrossing my daughters 1992 Miata and I believe that my fellow PCA'ers don't believe I own a Porsche. I figured if I had it done professionally I may be able to get it done this year.

What pan did you use ? Dansk? Did you do the whole pan or just the front piece.
Did you remove all the spot welds or cut and paste?

Thanks
dog

berettafan · 03-25-2010, 08:00 AM

A practiced hand can do a pan in a day.

Used restoration design pan etc but you should read up first.

lamaker · 03-25-2010, 08:03 AM

I just had mine replaced a month ago in my '66 912 and the cost was about $1500...that was just labor, no parts.

b rock · b rock's Garage

Just had mine completed last week by Kurt Williams Pelican member PJV911. Cost $1500 . Included some fabrication for other work, replace fan belt, install pop-off. Good job seems to be very reasonable price. Bought parts from ZIM'S . $210.00 for suspension pan, fuel tank support and LCA reinforcements as a package. PJV911 located Suffolk county L.I.

na2ub · 03-25-2010, 09:06 AM

Why are you replacing it? Is it rusted out again, or can you not achieve a proper alignment?

304065 · 03-25-2010, 10:48 AM

Only way to do this RIGHT is to put it on a Celette bench so that the pan can be precisely aligned-- that's what you see in the factory workshop manuals.

Call Damon at Series900 603 863 0090, he is in Sunapee, NH, 4.5 hours from NYC, he has a Celette bench and is an expert at doing these things to the alignment is maintained.

The factory pan is the best, it's more expensive, but if you offer up the Dansk or RD pan, it doesn't quite fit against the bench, requires some trimming and tuning to make it work which offsets the cheaper material cost with higher labor cost.

scottrx7tt · 03-25-2010, 11:26 AM

$250 In east tennessee, by the guy that painted my car.

turbochad · 09:00 PM

As someone who is currently doing my first 3/4 pan, longitudinal, and tank support, and latch panel replacement myself, I have to you that it is a major project (you may not need all the parts that I did, the PO ruined the original latch panel with a shoddy pan replacement). You have to carefully drill out all the spot welds with a spot weld cutter, cut out out the horseshoe, hammer and dolly all the metal back to shape, grind down any factory welds, pre fit the new panels, coat the weld surfaces with weld through primer, pre drill holes in the new panels for plug welding, align and clamp the panel in place, check all the mounting point dimensions one last time, tack the panel in place, check dimensions again, plug weld the pan into place and shape any areas where the replacement part just doesn't fit, do the whole process again for the longitudinals, install (weld in) suspension mount doublers (very important), prime the bottom of the tank support and the top of the pan covered by the tank support, check that all the equipment mount points on the tank support and longitudinals before final assembly, install tank support, grind smooth any weld crowns, fabricate and weld in washer bottle mounts or other support tabs, weld pinch seams and front latch panel seam, hammer and dolly the seams warped by welding, wire brush any weld through primer off exposed areas, clean and prep metal, acid etch prime exposed metal, spray wurth body shutz to match factory undercoating, prime and paint, reinstall suspension and rest of front end including pan drains. (that is the longest sentence that I have ever put to paper)

I probably forgot something, but I have to say that to do a good job of it, and depending on what you find when you get in there in terms of rust or damage, this project can take op to 25- 45 shop hours. Do the math at shop rates and it is a major deal. That being said, I am really enjoying fixing the hack job that the previous owner did on my car. It is very rewarding and knowing it is done right is priceless. This area of the 911 is very vulnerable to rust and damage, even in the galvanized cars. It is the only area in my '71 that really had problems. I feel your pain, best of luck with your search, and whatever way you go, do it right.

berettafan · 03-26-2010, 04:25 AM

They biggest thing i learned in the process was to be careful where you cut the old pan out. You don't want to grind away too much old metal lest you have nothing to mate the new pans seam up to.

Longitudinal supports were tricky and all parts suppliers are NOT equal. ******** part was crap. Rest. Design part was, IIRC, factory Porsche and beautiful.

I took a long time (though not necessarily hours) to do my pan but a lot of that was hesitation and inexperience. Were i to do another pan i suspect it'd take me a weekend.

Number1_dog · 03-26-2010, 05:20 AM

This is what I have and I have already put in some hours taking the spot welds out on the front tank support. It would be a shame to just take the easy way out and cover this all up.

I think I'll try and tackle the job with the help of some local VW restorer friends, they do some amazing work. The project has gone on this long - another month, or two, will be worth it in the end. It is a good thing that my daughter inherited my love of cars, besides her 92 Miata here everyday car is a Mini Cooper, both manuals.

novadia · 03-26-2010, 09:06 AM

Hey Dog,

I have the same dilema as you. I have been looking for the right place to do the job correctly. John C. is right, the best way is with a bench but NH is a bit too afr for me. I think Rick Deman of Deman Motorsports in nyack can do it. Would love to hear how you worked it out.

Neil

Number1_dog · 03-26-2010, 09:17 AM

TURBOCHAD

I've seen where some people take off the front bumper and just drill out the spot welds straight through and then all they have to do if spot weld that part of the new panel from the front using the holes in the front panel. Did you do this?

I have an air tool that will cut the new spot welds in the new panel so I don't have to drill them. Every little bit helps.
dog

Jeff Higgins · 03-26-2010, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbochad

As someone who is currently doing my first 3/4 pan, longitudinal, and tank support, and latch panel replacement myself, I have to you that it is a major project (you may not need all the parts that I did, the PO ruined the original latch panel with a shoddy pan replacement). You have to carefully drill out all the spot welds with a spot weld cutter, cut out out the horseshoe, hammer and dolly all the metal back to shape, grind down any factory welds, pre fit the new panels, coat the weld surfaces with weld through primer, pre drill holes in the new panels for plug welding, align and clamp the panel in place, check all the mounting point dimensions one last time, tack the panel in place, check dimensions again, plug weld the pan into place and shape any areas where the replacement part just doesn't fit, do the whole process again for the longitudinals, install (weld in) suspension mount doublers (very important), prime the bottom of the tank support and the top of the pan covered by the tank support, check that all the equipment mount points on the tank support and longitudinals before final assembly, install tank support, grind smooth any weld crowns, fabricate and weld in washer bottle mounts or other support tabs, weld pinch seams and front latch panel seam, hammer and dolly the seams warped by welding, wire brush any weld through primer off exposed areas, clean and prep metal, acid etch prime exposed metal, spray wurth body shutz to match factory undercoating, prime and paint, reinstall suspension and rest of front end including pan drains. (that is the longest sentence that I have ever put to paper)

I probably forgot something, but I have to say that to do a good job of it, and depending on what you find when you get in there in terms of rust or damage, this project can take op to 25- 45 shop hours. Do the math at shop rates and it is a major deal. That being said, I am really enjoying fixing the hack job that the previous owner did on my car. It is very rewarding and knowing it is done right is priceless. This area of the 911 is very vulnerable to rust and damage, even in the galvanized cars. It is the only area in my '71 that really had problems. I feel your pain, best of luck with your search, and whatever way you go, do it right.

I just finished this job with my 19 year old son on his '68 912/911. We replaced the lower pan and all three tank support panels. With all of it fresh in my memory, I would say you pretty well covered it. In our case, however (being the rank amateurs we were), I would put total hours closer to 80-ish. Make no mistake - this is one hell of an undertaking for the home mechanic.

I was discussing our project (o.k., more like snivelling about it) with a local fellow early car fan just a week or two ago. He had to replace the same four panels we replaced, but he is in no way equiped or skilled to do it himself. He paid a local body shop, one of the most reputable in the area (with a good deal of 911 experience to boot) over $5,000 for the job. Having done one now, I might gladly pay that if there is ever a "next one" in my future.

I kept one of the rusted out, and finally torn out front a-arm mounting nuts from my son's old pan. It now resides on the "wall of shame" in my garage (along with various scuffed and melted pistons and heads, broken rods, flattened cams, and other memoribilia). I figure I'll throw it in my pocket any time I go to look at another 911 to buy...

berettafan · 03-26-2010, 12:53 PM

OMG i typed in the name of a vendor in my post above and it was *****'d!

turbochad · 03-26-2010, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Number1_dog

TURBOCHAD

I've seen where some people take off the front bumper and just drill out the spot welds straight through and then all they have to do if spot weld that part of the new panel from the front using the holes in the front panel. Did you do this?

I have an air tool that will cut the new spot welds in the new panel so I don't have to drill them. Every little bit helps.
dog

The method you describe above is the best method if you are dealing with factory metal. I was not able to do that because I also had to replace the front latch panel because the moron who did the previous pan replacement edge welded the pan to the latch panel instead of plug welding it. The latch panel was destroyed by the time I got the pan off of it. Replacing the latch panel is very delicate work. The same moron cut off the pinch seam and butt welded the sides of the pan to the wings. I had to completely fabricate the lower 3" of the fender wings with new pinch seams adjacent to the pan. That was fun.

An air chisel is really handy for separating the panels once you drill out the welds.
Besides your air tool, the other method to make the new holes is a punch, but I couldn't find one locally and decided to drill and deburr the holes instead of spending $50 for a punch.

You sound like you can handle this project. It is sort of addicting and I have really enjoyed doing the metal work. Good luck.

500_19B · 03-27-2010, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 304065

Only way to do this RIGHT is to put it on a Celette bench so that the pan can be precisely aligned--

No doubt a Celette bench would be the easiest way to get a perfect result, but I would disagree with the notion that this job cannot be done right without it.

This is assuming it is just a half-pan replacement without extensive damage to the longitudinals.

When doing a half pan, you maintain the cross-member mounting location so it is only the front LCA mounts that you have to align. Assuming your car is well supported on stands, and remains that way for the duration of the job, then the vertical position of the four bosses is easy to maintain with "story sticks", the fore-aft is not difficult as the LCA mounts are slotted anyway and the side-side positioning is not difficult to reference from various points on the longitudinals. Natually you need to take many careful reference measurements with precise tools.

Careful measuring, re-measuring and logical welding will be able to get a result well-within tolerance. Having built over 30 custom bicycle frames I do have a good understanding of how to measure and align things.

Quite a few technically-adept people have done this repair with very good results. Based on my experience, I would think $1000 to $1500 would be reasonable for a professional.

This is my own story for reference:

Battery-area surprise! - Rennlist Discussion Forums

356coupe · 06-04-2010, 05:04 AM

berettafan, just saw your post on pan replacement. Any more advice as to watching what areas not to cut? I have a 68 912, have just removed the tank tray and am getting ready to remove the pan that was damaged by p.o. running over small boulder on LF corner. Ron, near Baltimore.
356coupe@comcast.net
Hope to hear from you.

moneymanager · 06-04-2010, 07:25 AM

If you don't need to replace the whole pan, don't. A competent body man can cut out a rusty section and replace it with steel cut from a replacement pan. Butt welded in position and covered with POR and/or undercoat you won't be able to find it. $700 in Santa Barbara a year or so ago.