a fear we all (should) have
 

I'll start by saying that for nearly five years my old 912E has been a dead reliable car. The only problems I have had with it have been the result of hurdles encountered during upgrades and unnecessary projects. Through rain, snow, autocrosses, summer heat, traffic, etc., it has been a great car.

But it caught fire today.

At first I noticed the tach and temp gauges flickering wildly. Then I smelled the smoke. Fortunately, I was on my way home and no more than 1/8 mile from my house when I realized what was likely to be going on--fire.

Amidst a cloud of stinky smoke, I pulled into my driveway, popped open the engine cover and saw flames near the firewall on the passenger side... right by Weber carb which was of course full of gas and fed by a rubber fuel line.......

I ran to the garage and grabbed the nearest fire extinguisher... but it didn't work. Dead.

To the kitchen.

Grabbed the fire extinguisher on the kitchen counter and ran outside where my car was still burning. I pulled the trigger and filled my engine bay with powdery yellow fire extinguisher discharge. No Halon system in the 912E, you see.

I called my insurance company first (after I concluded the fire was truly out and there was no need to call the local firemen). They said I'm covered for such a fire. Sigh of relief.

Then I started to look around. It looks like the wiring harness itself was on fire. It is a melted mess on the inside of the engine bay as well as below it where it leads to my alternator (remember, 912E has a T4 motor and the alternator is below the engine tin).

Now my engine bay is a serious mess. I don't know if/how to clean it all out properly without taking everything out of the bay. I don't exactly know what is in a fire extinguisher and what effect it would have on an internal combustion engine since the dust will likely be in there for awhile unless I gut the sucker and power wash it.

Here's the kicker; I'm going to Watkins Glen for the R Gruppe meet and vintage races tomorrow. My roommate and I were planning on a little caravan (my 912 and his 72 911). I'm glad it happened in my driveway and not on the road somewhere!

What have I already learned? We all should have a small fire extinguisher in the car. At times, I have carried one. But not today. And, if this had occurred anywhere but where it did my car could have been a charred mess. More importantly, it could have lead to serious damage to the property of others. Fortunately it did not. But it sure isn't hard to carry an extinguisher.

And, I have a question for those of you who have been down this road. What's the strategy with the insurance company? Should I be concerned that the car is not stock? After all, I have Webers as well as more than a few other mods. I'm just wondering if this will be grounds for State Farm to try to get out of coverage.

Anyone with experience in this kind of situation?

Thanks guys!

I'd stay quiet about the webbers and any other mods. If they are so informed about Porsches to know the Webbers etc arn't standard say to them the origional parts are no longer available and these were the parts recommended by the supplier.

Sorry to hear about the fire!

Wow Dave. Sorry about the fire...good thing you could put it out. I have three fire extinguishers in the garage...one in the 911. Too many close calls in the past with other cars.

Maybe it's an opportunity for a motor upgrade. Good luck with the insurance comp.

Hum...

I'm actually working for State Farm. Thanks for the hints. I'll look for your reclamation.

Ciao,

Alain

What is that supposed to mean?

Well, if he does work for SF..he knows the value of the car right?

What do you guess?

Not to mention the fact that the reason for the Webers and the non-stock exhaust is exactly for the reason mentioned by Bill... that 912E-specific parts are hard if not impossible to locate. When I bought the car it already had a Weber carb conversion and aftermarket exhaust. I'd tend to think the original thermal reactors were more of a fire hazard anyway!

I'm not into guessing games and State Farm shouldn't be either. My car has been available for inspection since the day I bought it. Premiums are paid, car is legally registered, it passes state inspection and emissions without fail each year and so on.

I'm not looking to get away with anything, it's not worth it. I'm simply preparing myself for the eventual ream job that people in the insurance industry seem to enjoy. Guess we've got a reamer here on the BBS too.

sleeper..your profile says EE. The man needs sympathy at a time like this...not aggrevation.

Souk: didn't you know that State Farm employs EEs for investigating car fires?

"sleeper..your profile says EE. The man needs sympathy at a time
like this...not aggrevation."

Not to mention the fact that the reason I posted was also to encourage others to buy themselves a fire extinguisher!

Thanks Souk.

Perfect. Then you can come and confirm what caused mine and then write me a check to replace the wiring harness on a 912E. That should be fun.

Ok, Ok,... sympathy is needed.

I am NOT working for State Farm.

Dave: I sincerely apologize for this... this is a hard time for you and I shouldn't have done what I did.

I appreciate your initial post. In fact, I just bought an extinguisher today for my Targa.

Best of luck,

Alain

Dave sorry to hear about the incident. You are actually fortunate, it sounds like the fire was small and contained.

Your experience should be a wake up call to all of us. We need to keep on top of the fuel hoses. Some of these are 30+ year old, dry, brittle, waiting to leak fuel. If your fuel hoses haven't been replaced, do it now. Replace all of them, any rubber all the way back to the tank.

I've been amazed at how lax some people are about minor fuel leaks around hoses and clamps. This is a disaster waiting to happen. When I was shopping for my '73 I had to fix some leaks before I was willing to take it for a test drive! Then there was the battery with no tie down strap, waiting to short out the positive terminal. But that's another story.

Edit: Alain, you beat me to it with your post, but I still want this on record for those agents lurking:

That's fine sleeper, but I don't know too many EE's that can fully trouble shoot an entire system of electro-mechanical-pnuematic sub-systems, let a lone diagnose the failure of such systems. Perhaps you can, but for every expert opinion, there is always another.

I don't think Dave or Bill were trying to put one over on a claim agent as you might have taken a personal offense to.

Consider this: If a 911 owner was to fully document his/her restoration and customization of a car, would you still write that claimant a check for a Blue Book value or what every bench mark you use?

When folks pay their premium on time and at what insurance companies ask for (usually too much), why is it that when the worst happens and the policy owner is feeling their worst, that you and those in the insurance industry seem to have left your heart at the house?

Lets face it, insurance is an industry based on fear...and nothing else. We pay and are required to pay by our law makers (makes the insurance comps very happy). Your company is happy we pay, and they get rich off of it. Why continue the ill feelings toward the industry when you have an opportunity to help a fellow enthusiast..or just offer kind words?

Dave...past the bar and stick it to them..

Sorry sleeper, but I have paid more than my car is worth over the years for insurance, and I hope that if I were in Dave's situation, my agent and claim agent have more humanity than some that I have run into.

Dave,

Sorry for your loss. :( I do hope you will be made whole again.

What you had happen to you is one my larger fears. I have always carried fire extingushers in all of my cars for jus tthis reason.

As far as insurance, I have been with SF for ages and I have always felt they gave me a fair shake. If you haven't already, contact your agent, let him know what happened and what you need. Have him tell you what they will do next.

When my '67 912 was rear ended, one of the things I learned was that the adjustors do not have very good data on the costs of these older cars. You might want to do some research to establish a price for your car from national ads. When the adjuster comes, give him your data with a firm statement of what you want from him (repair, replacement, cash etc). If you are asking for something reasonable, the adjuster wil most likely help you get this closed out to your satifaction as you have already done alot of his job for him. It worked for me. :)

Good luck. Hope it turns out ok for you.

SmileWavy

Thanks Chuck,

I agree with you 100% and I am usually careful. My fire was, I believe, electrical and not due to leaking fuel lines. I'm still not sure exactly how it started but fuel wasn't on fire in the car by the time I managed to contain it.

All of my fuel lines are new within the last year. The fittings and clamps are all new too. I check them religously for any seepage. I disassemble and clean out the carbs, check that the float action and needle valves work well quite often, especially during the summer for performance as well as safety reasons.

Thanks Harry. Good advice. I'll keep you all posted.

Dave,

Sorry about your fire. Having first hand experience with engine compartment fires, I can sympathize:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/rearshot.jpg

Don't back down with your insurance company. Make sure you get what you need before you settle. It may take a little while.

That blows, Dave.

Hope you get it sorted out with a minimum of fuss. When it comes to insurance companies, be firm. Don't compromise much at all. Was there any external (fire) damage to the car? I don't want to sound like a ghoul, but if possible, could you post a picture for us? I'm sure tt should shock more of us into getting fire extinguishers.

Re extingishers- at least one kilo, preferably two, or 2x1kg units. Or else, and probably still, you may as well p1ss on a fuel/engine fire. The only hope is to get it early- hence the befit in an on board extingusher. Most people mount them in the passenger footwell against the firewall- another good place is jin the floor sills under the forward part of the doors. Its out of the way, and you can drill self tappers staright thru the carpet, there nothing in the sills there.

I know of a guy that lost a 993- went off the road in event, wedged the car and couldnt move it, the exhaust set fire to dry grass underneath- stood there and watched it burn.....


stuart 87 carrera

Dave,

Sorry to hear about the car, good thing you were so close to home!
Get those extinguishers in your cars!!!
Hope all works out on the insurance claim, keep us posted.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/FireExt.jpg

Another good point:

HAVE YOUR FORE EXTINGUISHERS CHECKED YEARLY!!!!

Nothing worse than grabing one in an emergency - and finding it dead like Dave did. Talk about panic. I have a guy who does my business fire extinguishers and he checks my home and auto extinguishers on a yearly basis. One in each car. One in the garage. One under the stove. One near the beadrooms.

This is not something to foo around with.

What we need (at least me anyway) is some bonefied leads on who/where/how to properly make replacement fuel lines so we're not stuck with the astronomical absurdity that the dealer or even some net suppliers want for those replacement hoses (like up around the fuel rails on my Carrera). I'm really leery of replacing my factory ones even at 20 years old, and hodge-podgeing together some fuel lines and fittings. And I can't afford the $500+ it would take from a p-car dealer.

Sounds like a perfect product opportunity for Chuck Moreland? ;)

Or maybe a good tech article...

I've done my searches and they all involved different suppliers, different opinions...I'd replace my lines if I new how to cut to the chase...

-BG

Got a fire in my Ferrari with 4 webers. Shot it out with a fire extinguisher carried on board. The lousy Napa Fuel pressure regulator was the culprit. Minimum damage, lots of clean up, no long term harm done, thank God.

Always carry a fire extinguisher in your car, any car. If you don't need it, someone else will.

Are there any Halon-like extinguishers that can be used in cars? Powder makes a mess and eats metal quickly.

Dave....there is a guy that posts on the 914 list and at www.914club.com , his name is Bowlsby. He makes and repairs Type IV wiring harnesses. I have not used his work, but by all accounts they are a work of art.

HTH

Thanks guys.

I'm going to post this seperately, but what are the effects of that fire extinguisher dust in my engine bay? Do I need to really disassemble everything and take the motor out to clean it all out properly? What will this substance do to my engine when it inevitably gets in there? How does it eat metal?

Dave, I am sorry that happened but glad that it was not worse (car was not completely melted and you were not hurt).

I had a harness bar sitting around my garage that I bought a while ago. I struggled with the idea of installing it in my car even though I don't have harnesses right now. But the bar does have an extiguisher mount and which made more sense than having the extiguisher roll around the floor. Your story and the fact that you had to go find one when you needed it answered all my doubts.

Steam clean it, get it all out. Belive it or not, we were required to use water on large electrical fires back during my time in the navy. This was specifically for load centers that had to be useable. No powders were allowed. Of course we didn't shoot an energized load center either. The point is the powders, while they smother the fire, usually do some short or long term damage to metal parts, especially aluminum, magnesium and other non ferrous alloys. You need to pull the engine anyway to properly assess the extent of the damage, so make sure you go the extra mile to prevent future related headaches.

Good luck!

One of my first purchases after getting the car was an extinguisher, which sits behind the driver's seat. I also bought ones for the 4-runner, garage, and kitchen at the same time, so the 911 actually increased the safety of the entire household.

I remember an incident with my '63 bug. I was driving along and it quit. I cranked and cranked, pumping the accelerator pedal. I finally popped the engine compartment to see if I could figure out what was wrong, and wouldn't you know the hose had popped off the fuel pump, and gas was streaming out. How the engine didn't catch fire I'll never know...

Okay guys, I'm off to Watkins Glen (sans Porsche) for the historics. The insurance company is supposed to take a look either tomorrow or Monday. We'll see what happens.

Thanks,

David

Believe it or not, when i used to own my 951, i had a fuel leak. Originally i thought it was a drip leak that i knew was in the back by the fuel pump. So i waited a week or so before doing anything about it, then fixed it. But one day before leaving work (i used to work for a porsche shop), one of the guys i worked with walked by my car and noticed that it smelled a bit like gas. So i went out there with him to find it (and was kind of annoyed since i had fixed the one in the rear already), and found out that one of the lines above the exhaust was leaking right on the header!!!!!!! And yet with all the hard driving i did, it never caught fire, go figure. Sorry to hear of the fire man.

So Dave...

Want is the conclusion of your fire saga? Are they going to do what you want without you needing to kick and scream?

Hi Harry (and others):

Well, the insurance company has required the local garage to tear the car apart so that they can see where the damage started and ended. They aren't going to come up with a settlement number/estimate until then. Hopefully early next week I'll know more. Right now, I have no idea what to expect.

The engine bay harness is the most heavily damaged and it is NLA. I've checked with PCNA and it's not even available in Germany. Some of the obscure 912E-only harness components are still available (there are like one or two of each sitting on some dusty shelf in Germany) but evidently not the big one for the engine bay.

So, we'll see. I'll keep you posted and thanks for asking. It's been no fun having the P-car down for June-a favorite summer month of mine. Pittsburgh isn't the best for warm sunny days and it's unfortunate that my car is missing them.

David

David - Sorry for the loss; I had a Grand Wagoneer go up and take out two cars next to it.

If it's not too late: Don't guess with the insurance agent what caused the fire - you don't know,. and some insurance companies don't cover all kinds of fires. Some may not cover a fire started by a dropped cigarette, some may not cover a fire started by a bolt of lightening, some may not cover a fire started by faulty wiring, whatever; you're not the investigater and you don't want to cheat yourself.
The only reason you should mention the upgrades you've made is if you want to be compensated for them - if not or if you don't have the receipts, forget it.

I never found out why my Jeep burnt down- the investigator never told me, I never asked, the insurance company sent a check, and I cashed it.

Dave,

Thanks for the update.

I have my 911 in the shop awaiting a top end. The shop is good but small and one of the guys has been out for the last 1+ weeks so my car waits. Here in Ory-gun, sunny, rain free days are to be savored. At this time mine are used waiting for the return of my car. Like you, I'll be patient since I know the car will return and all will be well with the world.

Interestingly, several years ago, I decided I "needed" a sports car in my life. Since I had owned british cars before, I figured I would get a MGB or TR6. As I was shopping, my neighbor put his 912E up for sale and, shocking to me, it was in my price range (until then I thought all Porsches cost the same as a modest home!) Once I saw that, I did some research and found out that early porsches were in my price range. So long Lucas, hello Bosch. My neighbors car was not for me (salvage title, rust, yada,yada, yada) but, as they say, the rest is history!.

Guys,

Thanks for the encouragement. Fogcity, I'm pretty sure the cause of the fire was a grommet deteriorated. It basically kept the harness from rubbing on the cooling tin where it passes through it. The grommet broke down with age, the harness rubbed through to wire on the tin and instant fire. The harness was actually welded to the tin after the fire was put out.

By the way, I used to own a Jeep Grand Wagoneer. It was gorgeous... blue with tan leather and woodgrain panels. I miss that truck. I'd buy another one if I found it to be as clean as mine but they are not easy to find.

Harry, is this going to be a stock top-end rebuild or are we doing some fun headwork too?

Later,

David

For those that need one:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/safety/H3R.htm

-Wayne