New no start problem - 82 CIS ROW
 

RESOLVED: Turns out the starter was failing to turn the engine over with enough force to have the engine fire off. I installed a new hi-torque starter replacing the old hi-torque starter and everything is good again.


Ok, I drove my car last week, 82 CIS ROW - no lambda. It ran fine. I went to pull it out of the garage yesterday and it wouldn't turn over. I distinctly remember a "whirring" sound when trying to start (fuel pump running on crank?). First two things come to mind, Low battery, bad starter. I get under the car where the yellow connection wire is and jiggle it. Try again, still nothing, one more time, ok the car turns over. I check my voltage 12.4 volts.

So now the starter is doing the starter thing, but the engine is not catching. My next thought is FP. I pull out my jumper wire and jump the terminals 87A and 30 - FP runs. I also checked the FP relay swapping it for the horn and the horn beeps. Ok, next I check the injectors are doing their thing. Lift on the plunger and it makes sounds, so injectors are firing. Next, I get out the meter and check the coil. Coil is good, I swap another just to be sure, no change. I next check spark with a timing gun while trying to start. I see blinking light so I must have at least a spark. Next, I check the AAV is not fully closed. It is open half moon so that should be doing its thing at least to start.

At this point I am a little defeated. I know I need to check pressures with the WUR and the fuel system. Before I delve into that I have 2 questions. Have I overlooked something simple as to why I have a non start issue? Could something in the fuel system be that critical that I can't at least get it to fire off? I could smell a little fuel from the cranking so its just odd that I have the 3 things needed, air, fuel, spark, but it wont catch.

Your problem is not as difficult as an electric A/C conversion! Try using a little carb/brake cleaner into the air cleaner, since you have spark.

Hopefully, you haven't flooded the engine! Try pulling the plugs and cleaning them.

“Have I overlooked something simple as to why I have a non start issue? …”


“Ain’t got no gas in it.”
Karl Childers - Sling Blade.

No laughing matter. My fuel tank sender failed me.

Did you do anything to the car between last drive and yesterday? Like fill up the tank or wash the car? Was it raining hard?

Can you feel the FD plunger? If not its stuck and you are getting too much fuel.

Couldn’t hurt to charge the battery. 12.4 seems a bit low.

Maybe intermittent fuel pump? Time to hook up the FP gauges.

I did not mention, but I tried some starting fluid, didn't fire. That led me back to it being a spark issue.

Maybe I did flood it, but I tried today and still no fire. I will pull and check the plugs. As far as gas I have at least a half tank, per my gauge and my trip odometer (gets reset at every fill up)

Nothing new. Drove home from work, parked in the garage ready for the next time I pulled it out. Only difference being the cold weather.

I did have the battery on a jump box while cranking thinking that was it. I can charge it back up.

Yeah I'm heading towards the FP gauges. I think you had commented one time that your FPR died and that caused a no start.

Years ago my teenage daughter told me her Saturn would not start. Took it to my trusted local mechanic. He spent hours trying to get it to start. I asked him how much fuel was on the gauge. He said one needle width above “E”. I brought a gallon of gas to him and it started right up. No charge! :)

Good luck. You’ll figure it out.

Maybe crack the fuel line on top of the WUR with a rag handy to depressurize then feel for the FD plunger. It should be all the way down. If you are flooding you don’t want to be engaging the starter.

Your logic isn't following correctly! You tried "starting fluid" (post #5), so it's NOT a fuel problem!

First check the coil wire to the distributor. If placed about 10mm from the fan housing, a strong blue spark should occur.
Then replace the coil wire and pull a spark plug wire and again check for spark with a spark plug. Next, check for a flooded engine (spark plugs).
Consider removing the FP relay and holding the throttle wide open while cranking, i.e. for a flooded engine.

Check the Green wire that runs from the distributor to the CDI. In my RoW I was having ignition and timing issues, wire insulation had fallen apart and was causing a short.

I will check continuity. I replaced the green wire with the splice about 2 years ago. My CDI was also redone by Bob Ashlock 5 years ago.

Have you contacted this guy for your starting problem, since you spent money with him?
What has he said? Or does he not know how to troubleshoot Porsche no-start problems?
Maybe you have a CDI problem! Post #9 describes how to properly test for a good spark.

Just a minor update.

I have taken a video of the original coil firing to grounded #3 spark plug.
This makes me believe everything electrical is working as it should.
I did check the green wire and it is continuous.
So coil good
Cdi is sending the signal to fire
Spark plug wire making spark

Must be the fuel. I started to hook up the gauge, but ran out of time. When I cracked up the fuel line, fuel did come out.

This leads me to believe the FP is sending enough fuel through the fuel distributor and into the WUR or it is just some fuel. The gauges will need to tell the story.

So, would a bad CSV prevent the system from firing?

Could I bypass the FP relay and lift the plunger to get the injectors to shoot some fuel in the cylinders to force combustion?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1704412289.jpg

Not really, since you tried starting fluid before and no starting.

Not really.

No. It would still fire but take longer.

Yes, just key on with sensor plate being moved will inject fuel. Again, remember you used starting fluid.

Ok so now I'm back to square one as the fuel pressure look reasonable

System pressure: 5 bar
Cold WUR: .85 bar (a little low)
After 1 min: 1.28 bar
After 10 mins: 2.68 bar (a little low, I think 2.7 is the min)
Leak after shut down, after 10 mins still 2 bar

So, I have fuel pressure, I have spark (at least per my video I do).

Next I need to check the plugs and that my injectors are spraying. Odd that it was running 1 moment and dead the next. Almost like something electrical crapped the bed.

You say “the engine won’t catch” how long are you cranking for? If its a little bit flooded it might take 6-7 seconds continuous cranking. If its really flooded might not start til tomorrow.

Along that same line, with my CSV unplugged I gave up after cranking for 10 seconds. Plugged it back in started instantly.

Might also unplug your CSV see if it starts. If it were failed open it would flood.

Have you checked the FD plunger yet? You can have perfect fuel pressures if plunger is in the wrong place (elevated or stuck) it will flood the start.

If ROW car has the same WUR -90 as my USA 1983 your pressures look low. Cold should be much higher 1.7-3 Bar off the top of my head depending on temperature. After start mine is over 3 bar after 2 minutes. Low pressures = rich start and cold running until warm.

ROW SCs have an 089 WUR. Different specs. Also, the 090 does not have a vacuum line like the 089.

I think I wrote this yesterday in a different thread: Remove the spark plugs and crank it for about 10 seconds to clear out any flooding. Pull the fuel pump relay so it doesn't deliver any fuel. Then reinstall spark plugs and try starting it on starting fluid only.

Check for vacuum leaks. I suppose a cracked hose somewhere creates a huge vacuum leak and prevents successful start. To make this test you need a smoke generator.

Thomas

I already had this problem. I will give you my 2 cents of how I would do it.


1st : To prevent too much gaz to go thru your cylinder, remove your injector and put the 6 nozzle inside a little bottle. You will be able to see if your injector works like it should. Remove the 12V at your Wur and your AAV to make sure the car acts like cold.

2nd : Remove the air filter, put the car at ignition, bypass the fuel pump to make sure it pumps all time and lift the fuel plate inside the airbox to ensure you have fuel coming from the fuel pump and the injectors spray.*

3rd : Put the filter back, remove the bypass at the fuel pump and crank the car to see if the injector sprays. Try the best you can to hear the cranking speed of the engine. We will need it further.

4 th : The Wur on a row car has a vaccum and a thermo valve in the vac line. The thermo valve is supposedly close when the car is cold, so it prevents the vacuum to go thru the wur and it richens the mixture for cold start. Unplug that vac line to make sure the wur richens the mixture. You can also check if the line has vacuum further.

5 th: Remove the air line going to the AAV to make sure the valve is open to provide enough air for cold start.

6 th : Put back your injector in the intake runner, and crank your engine. See if it cranks faster than in Step 3. If the speed is the same, you need more fuel. The car will crank faster if your cylinders are wet.
(Your problem can be your csv / thermo time switch, bad fuel pressure)

7 th : Remove your air filter and ask someone to lift up the plate a little bit while you crank. You should hear the car crank faster and the car should start. If not, the problem is somewhere else...(Ignition timing or air leak (smoke test)

Depending on what happens while you do this test, it will give us some more info. On my car, my fuel pump always runs when I put the key at ignition. I made it this way because I live in a really cold area and need more fuel for Cold Star (5 degre celsius).

Thanks

I'm going to pull the plugs and run the engine to make sure I didn't flood it. In all my tests it never seemed to run faster even with trying to lift the plunger with the FP running and force fuel into the cylinders.

After that I run through your steps.

Also, when I said I sprayed started fluid I originally shot it into the toilet cover hole, then thought I never got a good shot into the throttle body.

Is there a good place to shoot the starting fluid in? I don't think it will run with the throttle body boot off right?

Do not use starting fluid. You don't try to start an old Caterpillar diesel engine. Also, the starting fluid will go down the airbox and will only go inside the lower runner at the airbox (2 and 5)… In that case, if your ignition is off and the intake valve is open, when the spark plug ignites, it will burn the mixture, backfire in the intake and explode your airbox… The pop-off valve can do the job, but that may be an expensive mistake. It's the CSV job to richen under starting condition and the metal spider to make sure each runner has enough fuel.

Plugs pulled - all gray with a little brown, none were wet.

Turned it over a couple times with the FP off.

Been Watching By The Sideline……….
 

Nick,

You need to do a systematic test to identify the culprit/s. If this was my car, I would do the following not necessarily in this order:

• Install a WUR with the correct control fuel pressures.
• Test and confirm that the CSV is working.
• Test for air leak using a smoke generator.
• Is the starter cranking the motor fast enough to get it to run?
• Install a known good CDI.
• Are you getting any sign of fuel combustion?
• Etc.

The car was running before so something had changed to immobilize the car. Were you able to get the motor to start and install at all? Even for a second or two? If not, then you are not producing engine combustion at all. A squirt of Starter Fluid could tell you if the motor is capable of producing an engine combustion in the chambers. Keep us posted.

Tony

Read post #5! Many of the recommendations have been tried.

Nditiz1: Well, at this point in this thread, you're getting conflicting advice and suggestions.

You know what to do: Air (compression), fuel, spark. It was running last week, so it's something simple. The compression didn't suddenly change on all 6 cylinders, and it's very unlikely that you suddenly got a massive air leak, or that your fuel pressures suddenly changed, and you showed a picture of a nice blue spark.

Think like Roadkill Garage, simple stuff first. Get it to fire on starting fluid, then gas, before you start pulling things apart or checking pressures. It ain't rocket science...

If someone were to spray starting fluid in, where would be the best place? pull vacuum hose off boot and spray in the hole?

Does this look right for spark? Seems slow. I also sprayed a bunch of starting fluid prior to taking this video and still no catch, not even for a second.

https://youtube.com/shorts/Q-k9jvIoOao?si=RZbD_-zHM3CZBD9P

Low Batt…………
 

Nick,

Don’t expect to get your motor to start with your current battery status. The battery is too weak to crank and get it to START. Have your battery tested. I will bet you it will not PASS the test for CCA (cold crank amperage). Lastly, the spark signal shown in the video is a JOKE. The ignition signal is too weak. Try an inductive timing light. How old is the battery? Good luck.

Tony

Post #9 describes how to check for a STRONG 10mm blue spark! Additionally, remove all plugs and check for fuel fouling.
Replace only 3 plugs, after air blowing plugs, and spray starting fluid into air filter. Then try to start.

Tony battery is 6 months old, I will have them test it.

As long as it's cranking normally, the battery is OK. No need for unnecessary tests!

Something that "jumped" out at me from your video--the spark did not occur on every cycle. It missed several times. So maybe your ignition is at fault.

Do what Dave recommended.

An excellent way to check your battery under a real load is to measure the voltage drop when you are cranking the engine. If it drops much below 10 volts, your battery may be weak. I hope you put a charger on it after all your testing/cranking.

Thanks Peter, I have been charging it on a NOCO Genius 3500.

I just performed some more tests like in my video.
All with similar results even with a different CDI (MSD5520) and a different coil. I'm not ruling the CDI out, but I will say that Bob Ashlocks work is one of the best. I can easily send it out to him for free testing.

Maybe as Tony said my battery is crap. I did not test it under load. Could drop too low to create the needed spark. I have had 6 month old batteries die before (wifes Acura, factory battery)

I will swap it out tomorrow and report back.

EDIT:Maybe the hi-torque starter is masking the battery issue, enough to spin that little unit, but too weak to power CDI

Really? You're joking now, right? Anyone who's owned a 911, can easily hear whether the battery is weak by the sound of the starter.
Furthermore, why haven't you checked the battery voltage with a VOM while cranking? Good rebuilt CDIs should produce an adequate spark
for ignition at a battery voltage of 8.5V to 9.0V. Hopefully, your "rebuilt" CDI isn't one of those ones with a "re-design for better operation/performance"?
Have you done the spark test referenced in post #9? This will provide an indication of the energy level of the spark while cranking.

The key overlooked potential problem, i.e. the ignition coil! Hopefully, you have the original small black coil, and not the silver Bosch coil, right?
You can always use an original VW coil for testing.

Dave just mentioned something that I should have thought of earlier--the coil (I have suggested it in other threads--Doh!).

Coils do fail gradually and/or intermittently. High humidity or high temperatures can cause them to act up, or they just start missing or hard to start for no apparent reason. If there's any way you can get or borrow a spare, try swapping it out. Pertronix and MSD offer coils that are compatible with CDI. There was a thread a couple months ago where we listed out the electric characteristics of several coils and identified at least two that are good matches (I just can't find it right now). IIRC, one was the Pertronix 8222. They aren't expensive either, about $60. If you don't carry a spare coil in the car, that would be a good reason to buy it anyway.

The coil I had on is a bosch black. I tested it with a VOM and it looked the same as another bosch spare I had. I also have an MSD one that was used by another member when he was stranded. I have tried all 3 with no difference.

As far as the CDI. I am using an original rebuilt one one. Also, as I stated I tried an MSD 5520 which has also been tested and is working. I might even go as far as swapping the CDI into my other 911 to rule it out completely.

Are you sure the MSD CDI was connected properly? Have you checked the distributor pickup signal for about 600 millivolts AC. How about testing the rotor and the distributor cap?


That should've been one of the first tests!

Dave I appreciate the comments, but sometimes you come off as arrogant. As you stated I think I know how to wire an MSD after installing my CR AC.

Anyhow, just for sanity, I swapped the CDI out of the no working car into the working car and it fired right up. CDI box tests good.

I can swap over the coil and the battery as another sanity check, but I feel similar results will be supplied.

So, what would just stop the car from running one day to the next? All starting with the weirdness at the starter it might be time to get it up in the air and check the ground wires as well as the connections at the starter. Could a bad engine ground cause intermittent spark?