Porsche sues Singer

[PeteKz]

In case y'all haven't seen this yet.

It sounds to me like Porsche's lawyers are having to justify their fees with some "lawfare." I don't see how what Singer does differs in principle or substance from what other custom car builders do with Fords, Chevys, many other makes, parts, etc.

https://youtu.be/jbLdytFMBDA

[darrin]

Thx for posting -- have a feeling this is a lot more about singer's practice (at clients' request) of creating stylized trim/accents using variations of Porsche's trademarked logos/fonts than it does with the underlying design/look/feel of the singer vehicles.

Irrespective of singer and its products, it's important for Porsche to protect the integrity of its trademarks from infringement or dilution and knowingly allowing a third party (no matter how good they may be) to continue to do so without their permission can weaken Porsche's trademark rights / distinctiveness. Since the lawsuit's now under seal, suspect it's being settled out in a way that will both allow Singer to keep doing what it does but limit its ability to create stylized versions of Porsche's trademarked crests/fonts or logos -- put another way, seems this is less about protecting Porsche from singer and more about preserving Porsche's right to protect its IP from something like this

[dg567]

The case was Voluntarily Dismissed by Porsche on 3/22

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/68283006/porsche-cars-north-america-inc-v-singer-vehicle-design/

[Mark Salvetti]

Porsche has been going after entities to protect their IP for a long time. In fact, that is how Rennlist was born.

There used to be an email-only forum called Porschefans. There were a lot of issues with Porschefans, and a small group of disgruntled members formed Porschelist in May 1998, led by John Dunkle and his wife Jenn. There was no website. A few months later, the Porschelist website was created, with Wayne here at Pelican one of the founding sponsors.

I think within a year or two, Porsche sued Porschelist for using their name. The Dunkles transitioned everything away from Porschelist and formed Rennlist. You might see a few of us at Rennlist are Lifetime Members - the lifetime memberships were first given to Porschelist members that contributed funds to help pay for the hardware upgrades to form Rennlist (at the time it was a private site owned by John and Jenn).

Mark

[EC900]

Interesting.
Can’t see how a car manufacturer can balk about modifications, though the use of trademarks is the main issue and not that any better or worse modifications that would either increase or decrease a brand cause harm to the original manufacturer, as any modification no matter how ugly or appealing, the liability usually falls on the mod installer and the mod equipment rather than the original vehicle specification. A bad or unauthorized label doesn’t count. The GTO and Lemans or the Chevelle and the SS has never had an issue.

Singer making a ton of money…?
Probably, someone went over the books and seen the profit in aftermarket revenues and trademarking is the only way to get in on some of the action. Buying rights to use logos (for profit) is expensive.
Because a product logo may not have the R, C or TM on it, it doesn’t imply free use. So I don’t see how use or alteration of an original logo can have implications on a whole but it does when it comes to who put it there and was permission granted.

This sort of thing happened decades ago in the coin-op vending machine restorations when a major US bottling company sought cease and desist plus restitution for decal makers unauthorized use of the trademark logo folks were plastering on restores bottle coolers and sort.

Suit being withdrawn, it’s interesting that the trademark suit was filed in Delaware of all places. Singer based in CA, PNA in GA.
If for some happenstance the EPA or DOT also suddenly gets involved with any of the many performance alterations/modifications….then Porsche®️ Porsche©️ Porsche™️ wins.
Any don’t say Porsch’. Use two syllables or else.

[PeteKz]

Originally Posted by dg567

The case was Voluntarily Dismissed by Porsche on 3/22

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/68283006/porsche-cars-north-america-inc-v-singer-vehicle-design/

Thanks for the update. It was settled quietly. I wonder what the terms were.

"Porsch, Porch, porch, etc."

[ErrorMargin]

Originally Posted by PeteKz

Thanks for the update. It was settled quietly. I wonder what the terms were.

At minimum, I'm certain Singer agreed to not modify Porsche trademark logs and such.

[MBAtarga]

Singer has already revised their web site to make it less "Porsche" evident and adding disclaimers, etc:

Singer Group, Inc. (Singer) restores and reimagines 1989 to 1994 Porsche 911s, based on the 964 chassis at the direction of its clients. Singer does not manufacture or sell automobiles.

Singer is not sponsored, associated, approved, endorsed nor, in any way, affiliated with Porsche Cars North America, Inc., or Dr. Ing. h.c.F. Porsche, AG. The Porsche® name and crest, 911® and TARGA® are trademarks of Dr. Ing. h.c.F. Porsche AG, and any other products mentioned are the trademarks of their respective holders. Any mention of trademarked names or other marks is for purpose of reference only.

The product of Singer’s painstaking effort is a Porsche 911 restored and reimagined by Singer. Out of respect for Porsche, and to respect Porsche’s trademark rights, this incredible machine should never under any circumstances be referred to or described as a “Singer,” “Singer 911,” “Singer Porsche 911” or a “Porsche Singer 911,” or in any other manner that suggests that it is anything but a Porsche 911 that has been restored and reimagined by Singer.

[PeteKz]

Originally Posted by ErrorMargin

At minimum, I'm certain Singer agreed to not modify Porsche trademark logs and such.

Maybe Singer also had to agree to pronounce "Por-sha" with two syllables.

[onboost]

I thought Porsche and Singer had recently entered into an agreement where Porsche was actually building/rebuilding the engines for Singer, or are they still being done by multiple companies?

[GH85Carrera]

Even the Porsche club of America, (PCA) has to get permission to use the Porsche name. They have strict rules about the club using the name.

Many of the regions had to update and change their region's logos to eliminate the Porsche name or crest. They are rightly very protective of the name and copyrights. They never want it t become a generic name like Aspirin which was once a trade name.

[shoooo32]

Porsche Motorsport NA was under contract for a minute to build Singer's standard (not 4 cam) engines. It sounds like that plan flamed out pretty quickly.

[darrin]

Originally Posted by MBAtarga

Singer has already revised their web site to make it less "Porsche" evident and adding disclaimers, etc:

Singer Group, Inc. (Singer) restores and reimagines 1989 to 1994 Porsche 911s, based on the 964 chassis at the direction of its clients. Singer does not manufacture or sell automobiles.

Singer is not sponsored, associated, approved, endorsed nor, in any way, affiliated with Porsche Cars North America, Inc., or Dr. Ing. h.c.F. Porsche, AG. The Porsche® name and crest, 911® and TARGA® are trademarks of Dr. Ing. h.c.F. Porsche AG, and any other products mentioned are the trademarks of their respective holders. Any mention of trademarked names or other marks is for purpose of reference only.

The product of Singer’s painstaking effort is a Porsche 911 restored and reimagined by Singer. Out of respect for Porsche, and to respect Porsche’s trademark rights, this incredible machine should never under any circumstances be referred to or described as a “Singer,” “Singer 911,” “Singer Porsche 911” or a “Porsche Singer 911,” or in any other manner that suggests that it is anything but a Porsche 911 that has been restored and reimagined by Singer.

Mark - surprisingly, looks like this disclaimer language has been on Singer's website for a while -- see, e.g. https://web.archive.org/web/20230127184604/https://singervehicledesign.com/ which contains a snapshot of Singer's home page in early 2022.

[David Inc.]

Originally Posted by darrin

Mark - surprisingly, looks like this disclaimer language has been on Singer's website for a while -- see, e.g. https://web.archive.org/web/20230127184604/https://singervehicledesign.com/ which contains a snapshot of Singer's home page in early 2022.

Yeah they've always been very insistent about how to refer to the vehicle's name, correcting basically every journalist who's ever done a piece on them.

[Jonny H]

Originally Posted by shoooo32

Porsche Motorsport NA was under contract for a minute to build Singer's standard (not 4 cam) engines. It sounds like that plan flamed out pretty quickly.

True. A couple of my pals have been approached to build enginers - one has joined and is now commuting between the UK and California!

[Hi_Fi_Guy]

Porsche should pay Singer. They would never be able to charge what they do for new GT3 type cars if Singer had not broken through the perceived ceiling for 911 prices. Singer has probably added more to the Porsche mystique and bottom line than they receive credit for.

[walt]

Here is a follow-up to the actual story behind this lawsuit.

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/04/exclusive-the-real-story-behind-porsches-spat-with-singer/

[3rd_gear_Ted]

Originally Posted by Jonny H

True. A couple of my pals have been approached to build enginers - one has joined and is now commuting between the UK and California!

Jai Lee of Mirage now has 4.4L motors.
Saw a recent build, off the charts stuff.

[86 911]

I remember a similar situation with Parts Heaven in Hayward, CA. I heard they used to be called Porsche Heaven until Porsche went after them and made them change their name. That was a cool little shop to get used parts back in the day. Too bad it closed several years ago. Bottom line is that it looks like Porsche takes anything related to their name or brand very seriously.

[Mocker]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Even the Porsche club of America, (PCA) has to get permission to use the Porsche name. They have strict rules about the club using the name.

Many of the regions had to update and change their region's logos to eliminate the Porsche name or crest. They are rightly very protective of the name and copyrights. They never want it t become a generic name like Aspirin which was once a trade name.

BMWCCA was forced to remove the roundel (!) from their logo.