Blasphemy? 911T vs. BMW 2002 vs. Alfa GTV?

[racea911]

Are there any of you guys who have driven all three cars? A 69-73 911T, a BMW 2002, and an Alfa GTV 2000?


My brother just sold his very original 72 911T because he was fed up with the looming repair costs. His motor was very tired as was his trans. His MFI and throttle bodies needed rebuilding. He was looking at close to $10k for a correct rebuild of the motor and trans. He said, "No way in HELL am I paying ten grand for 140 hp!".

As a joke I told him Mazda sells 130 hp Miata motors brand new in a crate for $1500. And he said "that is exactly my point!, if Porsche's are so incredible, and so well engineered, why does it cost so much, for so little power?" He stumped me, because it is a damn good question, isn't it?

Anyways, he has been researching other, more "practical classics". He has narrowed it down to a BMW 2002 and an Alfa GTV 2000. Both those cars seem to be a step down the ladder in terms of collectability and are priced accordingly. His findings are that the Alfa which has 133 hp can be rebuilt for between $3-4k and that engine parts are a dime a dozen since all those Alfa Spiders have the same motor. The 2002 can be rebuilt for about the same price. He tells me that these prices are to "do it right" and some have told him substantially less, but he is going with the high estimates.

I like both of the other cars he is considering, but have only driven 911's. OF COURSE THE PORSCHE IS BETTER BECAUSE IT IS A PORSCHE AND WE ARE PORSCHE FANS HERE! How are the contenders on the road and on the track vs. a 911T? Remember the T is no E and it is certainly no S or RS.

Thanks for as unbiased of opinions as are possible on this forum.

[rudy sanchez]

I might not be the right person to be asking... but I really love my bwm 2002s. and I have noticed that many other early 911 drivers also have an 02 in their stable. I just rebuilt the engine in one of my 02 and not only did I do it right, I seriously bumped the HP! it probably cost me $2k.

and as far as collectability.... I'm of the impression that a 911t is not that valuable. it's the E and the S that the collctors are looking for.

and the bmw 2002tii is very rare and extremely sought after. restored tii can sell for as much as $29k I just sold one of my three tii for 10.5k. those cars originally cost about 3.8k back in the day.

for a real bmw 02 rebuild, jack fahuna is the best and his prices are in the 3.5-4k range www.probmw.com

links to some of my 02
http://www.schusterphoto.com/silver%20sled.htm



http://www.schusterphoto.com/fjordtii.htm

and I also have a few early 911. I can't say which I have more love for. those bmw really do handle well, go fast, hold 4 adults and have great reliability. and the engines are cheap! LOL

[racea911]

Great post Rudy! You are right about the collectability of a T vs a more exotic 2002 or an Alfa GTA, but a nice T sells for a little bit more than a nice 2002 and GTV.

Your cars look so nice in your pic, I am ready to sell one of my 911's to get one!

[rudy sanchez]

value of both the 02 and the 911 are going up. some regular 02 (non tii) are selling in the 10k range but geography has a big impact on price. 02 are plentiful and cheap here in the sf bayarea.

I love the alfa but have heard too many horror stories. I'll stick w/ the germans!

funny, last night I followed my wife home over hwy 17 from sj to santa cruz. she was driving the 02 that has my rebuild in it and I was driving the 71 911e w/ 2.7 and PMO carbs etc. I really had to work to keep up w/ her. she needs to let off that GO pedal LOL

btw, locally bmw 02 sell for around 1500 needing some amount of work. so that price does allow for a lot of goodies to make that thing competetive. a similarl condition 911t would be closer to 4k in cost and cost 10x as much to rebuild/restore... I'd say your friend is thinking clearly if $ is an issue.

BTW, we have 6 02 in the family. my mom has the beautiful polaris silver 02 in the pic above. now she is thinking she needs a 912 to share the garage space w/ it.

[jyl]

Boy, doesn't seem like you could go too far wrong with any. He sure has good taste. See a recent issue of European Car for a comparison of the 2002 and GTV and a buyer's guide for the '02. There is a cool pic of an '02 engine compartment stuffed full of M3 horses. Travesty maybe but what an enticing travesty.

Edit: Sept 02 issue.

Edit: Wait a minute - can't he get more than 140 HP from a $10K rebuild if he does mods? Also, $10K could buy >270 HP if he put in a 3.6 . . . $6K could buy 200 HP if he put in a 3.2 . . .

[Matt Holcomb]

Originally posted by racea911
"No way in HELL am I paying ten grand for 140 hp!".

It's a problem. Maybe Wayne chould chime in and tell us why Porsche parts are so prohibitively expensive.


Matt Holcomb
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[racea911]

It is a problem, and it's a joke! Why do JE pistons for a 6 cylinder 911 cost $1000 but only cost $600 for a V-8?

Why is machine work so outrageous on a 911 engine case? Is it so meticulous that you have to be trained at NASA to do it while the Chevy/Ford/BMW etc machine shop throws a couple of monkeys with chisels on an engine case for about 20% of the cost? Isn't 10mm 10mm, no matter what kind of engine case it is? i heard PFI charges $900 to do a Porsche MFI pump, but only charges $300-$400 for a BMW or an Alfa pump. Of course the Porsche pump is "so much better engineered, and complex than the other two that it requires twice as much work". Yeah sure it does, interestingly though, the HP is not 100-200% more, like the price is.

I'm kind of ranting a little because I helped my bro find his car and now he is out of the Porsche world, and he thinks the Porsche world is silly and the joke is on us. He keeps saying "Better engineering doesn't mean 3 times as much money for the same outcome in hp". My response of yeah... yeah.... but a 911 LOOKS cooler, doesn't hold much weight.

[racea911]

Originally posted by jyl
Boy, doesn't seem like you could go too far wrong with any. He sure has good taste. See a recent issue of European Car for a comparison of the 2002 and GTV and a buyer's guide for the '02. There is a cool pic of an '02 engine compartment stuffed full of M3 horses. Travesty maybe but what an enticing travesty.

Edit: Sept 02 issue.

Edit: Wait a minute - can't he get more than 140 HP from a $10K rebuild if he does mods? Also, $10K could buy >270 HP if he put in a 3.6 . . . $6K could buy 200 HP if he put in a 3.2 . . .

$10k is for the motor and trans. He could go through the problem of buying a USED 3.2 for $6k and hoping it's not 1,000 miles away from a $6k rebuild. That's funny too, because a brand new crate motor from BMW (also German and high tech) for my '99 M3 costs $6k from the factory. That's also a 3.2 but puts out 240 hp right out of the box.

[rudy sanchez]

:-) I wish pfi charged 300-400 for a kugelfischer (bmw mfi pump)rebuild! it's $1k or MORE. and that pump is for a 4 cyl! on top of that it takes months until gus get's to it.

now I do know a guy in redding that rebuilds that mfi pump for $350 w/ a 5 day turn around. and that is who we used when my brother's tii mfi pump needed a rebuild.

[billwagnon]

I think Porsche rules. The BMW 2002 does look kind of cool though in a very retro way. The costs of engine parts etc can be explained by the relatively smaller market for the parts.

I do think the statement that a "T" is not 'collectible' is misleading. It's all a continuum. A 73 RS is a collectible; a 911 S is maybe what? 60% as collectible. An E, a little less. Put any of the three next to a Pinto of the same vintage and ask which is "collectible".

Put that same RS next to some of the cars in Sports Car Market (my new favorite magazine) and the RS doesn't look so hot for a collectible either.

I'm glad there were three (four) types of 911s so I could get a nifty collectible car in my price range.

[racea911]

OK, well that's good to know that the BMW pump is expensive too. Maybe it is the Alfa SPICA pump that is $300-400 to rebuild. I know you can buy a fresh rebuilt Alfa pump for $700 complete. Does the guy in Redding do Porsche MFI?

There is a shop 5 minutes from my house that does MFI pumps for about 60% of PFI with a fast turnaround time. My mechanic insists they don't know what they are doing though, so I ship to PFI, pay $1000 and wait four months.

[Chuck Moreland]

Unless originality is important, the $10k can build a lot more than 140 hp into that 911t motor.

Still, Porsche is no bargain on the HP/$ scale. If that is the key metric your brother is using, he should look elsewhere.

But HP isn't the end all, Porsche has a long reputation for trouncing higher HP cars on the track!

[racea911]

Originally posted by billwagnon
I think Porsche rules. The BMW 2002 does look kind of cool though in a very retro way. The costs of engine parts etc can be explained by the relatively smaller market for the parts.

I would guess that the market for 2002's and Alfa's is even smaller than for early 911's, so.... shouldn't they be even more expensive?

[racea911]

Originally posted by Chuck Moreland
Unless originality is important, the $10k can build a lot more than 140 hp into that 911t motor.

Chuck,
The MFI pump and throttle bodies are $1600 and the labor for the motor is $2400. The trans is $1500. That leaves $4500 for machine work and everything else, assuming he doesn't need new pistons and cylinders. And don't forget about the inevitable "while we're in there's" and the "if you wanna do it rights". Those prices seem right on from my experiences.

[Chuck Moreland]

Higher compression, S cams, big bore P&C... Your replacing all these things anyway, bumping up to S specs should be doable in your budget.

[billwagnon]

I would guess that the market for 2002's and Alfa's is even smaller than for early 911's, so.... shouldn't they be even more expensive?

yep I think you're right.

maybe cause Porsche is German? no that doesn't work either.

must be that elusive 'cachet' (and that's my final answer!)

[rudy sanchez]

I don't think anybody said a "T" is NOT collectible. it's just not as collectible as an 911 E or S or a bmw 2002tii.

there were less than 8k tii imported into the US.

any idea how may 911t?

[Hetmann]

We can all debate the mechanical, but restoration costs paint, trim, upholstery, and labor are going to be comparable. Get a tired 2002 and you'll spend a lot putting it right. I has a 320 way back when and in many ways that was the most fun car I ever had...until I got my 911.

[Doug Zielke]

I had several Alfas. I wouldn't say the parts are especially cheap or plentiful (compared to Porsche). I used Centerline Products in Colorado as my main supplier.

Most Alfa motors are stone reliable with a little care.
It's all the other stuff that's connected to the motor that's the *****s.

[dickster]

imho looks wise theres no comp.

i've not driven a 2002 but they're not the prettiest are they?

i've driven alfa's and they are fun cars. perfect driving position. as for the gtv 2.0 - i'vce always fancied the 2.5 v6.........