VR-1 20w50 conventional vs VR-1 20w50 synthetic?

[dictoresno]

I honestly had no idea Valvoline made the VR-1 20w50 in synthetic until tonight. I have always been using the grey bottle conventional VR-1 20w50 in my newly acquired (my dad's original) 1986 911 that just turned 50,000 miles.

I was watching some videos of the Motor Oil Geek on YouTube tonight where he was testing a bunch of Walmart synthetic oils vs VR-1 synthetic. I had no idea they even made VR-1 in synthetic. I did a search on the forum and saw some people were using it. According to their product data sheets, they look very similar in terms of ZDDP and Phosphorous levels but it seems (after reading the sheets) the cold start up flow of the synthetic is better.

Anyone now running the full synthetic VR-1 20w50 now instead of the conventional?

I was checking the oil today after getting the car back on the road after years of sitting. I did a fresh VR-1 oil change at 49,525 and when I pulled the dipstick today while hot and on level ground at just over 50,000 (probably close to the 600 mile mark on the new oil) it was as clean as when I poured it in back in May. I couldn't believe it. I know on my daily drivers, I can do a fresh oil change and then drive it a bit and the new Liqui-Moly will quickly darken once mixed and flowed through the engine. hopefully this is a testament on how clean this low mile engine is. ended up adding a few ounces of oil to bring the level back to halfway on the dipstick, which brings the oil level gauge up to about the 90% full mark. I think I read in the shop manual these can consume a quart of oil per 1000 miles as acceptable, so I guess im doing well in that sense.

[Schulisco]

Stay with a non-synthetic and all mineral 20W50! If the Valvoline is no more available, choose another brand, but stay with viscosity and klthe mineral/petroleum based oil. Also stay away from semi/partly synthetic oils too.

(Partly) Synthetic oils do not let swell rubber sealings as all pure-mineral oils do by nature. Therefore the synthetic oils need elastomer sweller additives. The problem is that todays synthetic oils mostly do not contain that much of them as required in an aircooled 911 engine with a lot more rubber sealings than a conventional inline or V engine has.
Will say - if you switch to a synthetic oil I expect your engine will start leaking oil...

Thomas

[proporsche]

Originally Posted by Schulisco

Stay with a non-synthetic and all mineral 20W50! If the Valvoline no more available, choose another brand.

Synthetic oils do not let swell rubber sealings as all pure-mineral oils do by nature. Therefore the synthetic oils need elastomer sweller additives. The problem is that todays synthetic oils mostly do not contain that much of them as required in an aircooled 911 engine with a lot more rubber sealings than a conventional inline or V engine has.
Will say - if you switch to a synthetic oil I expect your engine will start leaking oil...

Thomas

Plus it will work kinda like a send paper removing the carbon build up

Ivan

[Schulisco]

Originally Posted by proporsche

Plus it will work kinda like a send paper removing the carbon build up

Ivan

Maybe.
Personally I don't think so.
Todays all mineral/petroleum engine oils also contain detergents and other additives to prevent black oil sludge and carbon deposits (or keep them floating in the oil) which help keep the engine clean as synthetic oils do...

Thomas

[ammonman]

The reason many experience new leaks after switching to synthetic oils are two-fold. First, they are much better at dissolving the varnish and other sludges created when the non-synthetic lubes degrade or are over-heated in combination with moisture. The synthetics keep the disolved contaminants suspended and prevent them re-depositing much better than non-synthetic lubes. This action starts removing accumulated deposits from cracks and other defects in O-rings, gaskets, seals, etc where the deposits have accumulated and sealed a microscopic leak before it can grow. Second, synthetics tend to"capture" and suspend the remaining non-synthetic lubricant. As a result, the non-synthetic lube that has impregnated the various seals, O-rings, and gaskets is drawn out by the synthetic lubricant. Depending on the material of the seal, the result is generally that the item swells further as the non-synthetic lubricant is somewhat quickly drawn out before collapsing back to the original dimension. After the swelling recedes, the item no longer seals properly due to wear. We experienced both phenomena 25 years ago in my industry when we switched all our rotary screw and piston compressor systems to 100% synthetic lubricants. We spent lots of money with various independent labs trying to understand why we suddenly had so many leaking machines across our network. The result was a lot of rebuilds where the only things replaced were bearings and seals before re-fill with synthetic lube and putting the machine back in service. With effective side-stream "kidney loop" style filtration in place, some of these machines have not needed an oil change since.

[John W.]

I switched to Mobil 1 synthetic years ago on my 89 3.2 and it did not start leaking.

[snbush67]

Originally Posted by ammonman

The result was a lot of rebuilds where the only things replaced were bearings and seals before re-fill with synthetic lube and putting the machine back in service.

Did you use a different type of seal for the rebuilds?

[ammonman]

No. All items were replaced with the factory replacement seals/gaskets etc.

[proporsche]

Originally Posted by Schulisco

Maybe.
Personally I don't think so.
Todays all mineral/petroleum engine oils also contain detergents and other additives to prevent black oil sludge and carbon deposits (or keep them floating in the oil) which help keep the engine clean as synthetic oils do...

Thomas

what i meant is if you were using mineral oil and want to switch to synthetic...very bad idea..
Ivan

[911obgyn]

I switched to M1 20 50 a couple years ago on an over 180k motor. Was running VR1 changed after checking ZDP numbers and availability and price.
VR1 is over 10$ a quart now and hard to find.
No extra leaks, have fixed a few over the years…

[dictoresno]

Originally Posted by 911obgyn

I switched to M1 20 50 a couple years ago on an over 180k motor. Was running VR1 changed after checking ZDP numbers and availability and price.
VR1 is over 10$ a quart now and hard to find.
No extra leaks, have fixed a few over the years…

VR1 is available on Amazon and Walmart for $27 for a 5qt jug. Much better than buying it by the quart case.


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[FA-18C]

I use VR1 for the zinc, and it's a good price point - also don't track the car and it never really looks like it needs to be changed. Valvoline has a comparison of Dino vs synthetic on Youtube running to engines for 500K miles. From a wear perspective, seemed about the same, but the Dino had more varnishing of components. Makes me consider. With the frequency that I change, about 3500 miles on average, do not think there really is a huge difference between the two. I will concede the older seals and gaskets and synthetics give me pause, but for practicality, not sure I will see any difference.

[ammonman]

The seal leak issue is very dependent on the quality of conventional lubricant used over the life of the unit, change interval, and any thermal abuse with high moisture contamination in the lubricant. Excessive heat, moisture, and any wear metals in the lubricant combine to form acids and/or bases along with varnishes. Top quality modern synthetics remain stable at much higher temps and with greater moisture/wear metal loading than conventional oils. If you have an engine with a known history of quality conventional lubricant, on time oil changes, and minimal "short cycling" where the oil doesn't come fully to temp before the engine is shut off to drive out moisture then switching to synthetic generally will not result in new leaks. That said, the change make cause existing leaks to get worse. YMMV

[Gspin]

Been running VR1 20W-50 Synthetic in my 1988 for 20 plus years and the leak issues are nil.

[SLNT930]

Porsche Classic oils are synthetic. I doubt they would be offering these if there was such a huge issue switching from conventional in older cars.

[Schulisco]

On a tight engine which has been operated all the time with synthetic oil - yes, they will work and on them I wouldn't expect additional leaks. The OP asked for experiences in switching from synthetic to conventional oil due to availabiliy issues. There I personally expect additional leaks as Ivan also suspects.

Originally Posted by SLNT930

Porsche Classic oils are synthetic. I doubt they would be offering these if there was such a huge issue switching from conventional in older cars.

No. Not all Porsche oils are synthetic!
Yes, Porsche provides own oils, and they're pretty good oils, as always to be expected. BUT: The 20W50 is a conventional mild alloyed engine oil, the 10W60 is a synthetic engine oil! Porsche recommends the 20W50 for the 911 engines up to 2.7l, from 3.0l on the recommend the 10W60.
https://www.porsche.com/usa/accessoriesandservices/classic/motoroil-faq/
https://www.porsche.com/stories/innovation/what-is-the-best-engine-oil/

When it comes to Porsche Classic Motoroils, there are two base oil types – mineral and fully synthetic. The former is produced from natural crude oil. Before the development of synthetics, all motor oils were mineral-based, which is why they are used as the basis for the Porsche Classic 20W-50 Motoroil – making them perfect for pre-1977 up to 2.7 litres, air-cooled Porsche models. All the other motor oils in the range are made from synthetic base oils. These are refined and distilled and broken down to their basic molecules, removing impurities and then allows them to be assembled exactly as the manufacturer desires in order to suit more modern engines. All Porsche Classic Motoroils are also multi-grade, which means they’re suitable for winter and summer.

...

• Porsche Classic 20W-50 Motoroil for all air-cooled, pre-1977 Porsche models up to 2.7 litres (356, 914 and 911 F and G model)

Whether the engine is warm or cold, this engine oil has great compatibility with materials like the gaskets, which are made of cork, in these vehicles and generates few deposits. Specially formulated for the early air-cooled flat engines

• Porsche Classic 10W-60 Motoroil for air-cooled, 911 models from 3.0 litres upwards (post-1977 up to type 993)

When introduced, these Porsche air-cooled engines were developed to benefit from the technical progress made by developments in engine oils. Today’s fully synthetic oil is the best you can buy in order to help maintain your engine and keep it clean, whatever the temperature.

• Porsche Classic 10W-50 Motoroil for transaxle models (924, 928, 944 and 968)

This high-performance oil is synthetic, developed to reach superior lubricating qualities and to maintain its viscous consistency on cold starts.

• Porsche Classic 5W-50 Motoroil Water-cooled 911 models (type 996) and Boxster (type 986)

Developed for the most recent vehicles to be given a Porsche Classic designation, as well as great lubricating properties in all conditions, it also includes advanced corrosion protection as well as neutralising corrosive combustion products.

I consider following the original specs Porsche did in the manuals:



The older an engine is or the more mileage an engine has, the more I tend to use a conventional all mineral-based only oil. Also it depends what previous owners filled in.
The more modern an engine is or it already an overhaul in the last years the more safe I feel with synthetic oils.

[David Inc.]

For how hot these engines get I sure wouldn't use dino oil if you were going to track the car. 120C is pretty typical and that's pushing it for repeated use on dino oil.

Originally Posted by ammonman

The reason many experience new leaks after switching to synthetic oils are two-fold. First, they are much better at dissolving the varnish and other sludges created when the non-synthetic lubes degrade or are over-heated in combination with moisture. The synthetics keep the disolved contaminants suspended and prevent them re-depositing much better than non-synthetic lubes. This action starts removing accumulated deposits from cracks and other defects in O-rings, gaskets, seals, etc where the deposits have accumulated and sealed a microscopic leak before it can grow. Second, synthetics tend to"capture" and suspend the remaining non-synthetic lubricant. As a result, the non-synthetic lube that has impregnated the various seals, O-rings, and gaskets is drawn out by the synthetic lubricant. Depending on the material of the seal, the result is generally that the item swells further as the non-synthetic lubricant is somewhat quickly drawn out before collapsing back to the original dimension. After the swelling recedes, the item no longer seals properly due to wear. We experienced both phenomena 25 years ago in my industry when we switched all our rotary screw and piston compressor systems to 100% synthetic lubricants. We spent lots of money with various independent labs trying to understand why we suddenly had so many leaking machines across our network. The result was a lot of rebuilds where the only things replaced were bearings and seals before re-fill with synthetic lube and putting the machine back in service. With effective side-stream "kidney loop" style filtration in place, some of these machines have not needed an oil change since.

This is a really interesting post, thanks!

[spuggy]

Seems to me that there's a potential problem if we're using the same word to mean different things. Like "synthetic". From a Bob Is The Oil Guy - Liquimoly Leichtlauf High Tech 5W40 thread:

As you may know it's illegal in Germany to state that an oil is "synthetic" when it's a group 3 base stock. It is ok in the US to state that it's "synthetic" when it's a group 3 base stock. Years ago Mobil was sued in a US court because it claimed that Mobil 1 was synthetic even though it's a group 3 base stock that had been hydrocracked and the resulting polymers "re-assembled" into a "synthetic" oil. Mobil won the court case. However, a similar suit in a German court ended with the ruling that Mobil's process to create a "synthetic" oil does not result in a truly synthetic oil.

The (very, very) long "oil thread" here years ago covered this, in explaining why the US "Mobil 1" formulation was not the same as "Mobil 1" sold in Europe. Because the Euro market Mobil 1 was actually a full synthetic.

No reason why "synthetic" oil sold in the US couldn't actually be. However, it also might not meet the definition elsewhere, so caveat emptor.

Found that thread interesting - as it highlighted that Liqui-Moly Leichtlauf High Tech 5W40 - despite being German made and labelled "fully synthetic" when sold in the US - doesn't use the word ""Vollsynthetisches" on the German data sheet. As not a full synthetic according to the German definition...

[Nick Triesch]

This is interesting, the company that made our cars recommends full synthetic for our air cooled cars.

[SLNT930]

Originally Posted by Schulisco

On a tight engine which has been operated all the time with synthetic oil - yes, they will work and on them I wouldn't expect additional leaks. The OP asked for experiences in switching from synthetic to conventional oil due to availabiliy issues. There I personally expect additional leaks as Ivan also suspects.

No. Not all Porsche oils are synthetic!
Yes, Porsche provides own oils, and they're pretty good oils, as always to be expected. BUT: The 20W50 is a conventional mild alloyed engine oil, the 10W60 is a synthetic engine oil! Porsche recommends the 20W50 for the 911 engines up to 2.7l, from 3.0l on the recommend the 10W60.
https://www.porsche.com/usa/accessoriesandservices/classic/motoroil-faq/
https://www.porsche.com/stories/innovation/what-is-the-best-engine-oil/

I consider following the original specs Porsche did in the manuals:



The older an engine is or the more mileage an engine has, the more I tend to use a conventional all mineral-based only oil. Also it depends what previous owners filled in.
The more modern an engine is or it already an overhaul in the last years the more safe I feel with synthetic oils.

True the 20W50 is dino oil but that's only for pre-1977 cars. The 10W60, 10W50, and 5W50 oils are all synthetic. OP has a 1986 car - Porsche recommends synthetic. Porsche doesn't make a distinction between what oils had historically been used in the engines.

I've been running High Performance Lubricants Bad Ass Racing Oil 10w60 in my '87 930. I'll tell you I've never had leaks anywhere close to as bad as after the last shop filled it with Brad Penn 15w40 (which also was NEVER the viscosity spec for a 930 engine so who knows what they were even thinking?).

Porsche 10w-60: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/voa-porsche-classic-10w60.253341/
HPL Bad Ass 5w-30 (would expect similar from the 10w-60): https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/high-performance-lubricants-bas-5w-30-racing-oil-voa.310686/