You are seriously dating yourself with a line like that :)

Funny, I didn't mention RWD or FWD or AWD.

I have forgotten nothing about physics. First, let's be clear that mass and weight are different things and that load is what you probably mean when you say weight when discussing vehicle dynamics. Mass never moves around but the load generated by the mass does.

Load does not always equal traction because load is not just a vertical component of vehicle dynamics while moving . If load did equal traction, stiffening an anti-roll bar at the front of car would mean that understeer would be reduced, not increased.

Regardless of what you wrote, the mass distribution of a vehicle certainly affects what will happen and not just how you handle what happens.

Again, the "more tail happy" reputation of a 911 is not a false one...

My advice is to sign up for a Porsche Performance Driving School. This will illustrate a number of highly relevant vehicles dynamics you need to know, feel, and understand in order to drive your car with a degree of competence. This is very much unlike driving your sedan down to the grocery store, or to the office.

When will the back end come around? When you exceeded the limits of adhesion. When is that? That you have to find out by driving over the limit in a controlled setting - a random parking lot is not that setting.

I guess what i really need is to know what to do to not have that happen. however, as long as it doesn't happen in a normal highway/ street setting i'm happy!

And that is why the first thing I did after collecting my 911 and joining PCA was signing up for the PDS class. There they teach you how to drive the car with your feet!; your hands merely assist.

Once you know how to do that you will have the feel of the car, but also understand how to listen to what the tires are telling you. That said, this car will come around on you with almost no warning when you put the car outside its performance envelope. That is why if you need to find that limit, the PDS and follow up autocross is the place to find it.

Depends on your region, but for auto-x, usually no bar is needed. Some driving events, track wise, yes, but most of those you don't need as well. You just need to pass, tech.

To answer your question. It won't step out.
The tires provide the traction, not the car.
If you go beyond the traction of the tires it will understeer.
If you let off it will oversteer.

135 kph. ...... more or less.
SmileWavy

https://www.amazon.com/Porsche-High-Performance-Driving-Handbook-Elford/dp/0760327548/ref=asc_df_0760327548?mcid=f9a2697f782f3512b33045d 057e572c1&hvocijid=1862496347064966633-0760327548-&hvexpln=73&tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=721245378154&hvpos=&hvnetw= g&hvrand=1862496347064966633&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt =&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030895&hvt argid=pla-2281435177618&psc=1#immersive-view_1737141920547

This would be worth a read.

My $0.02.

If you've never driven a rear-wheel drive car in low-traction conditions, then go to a skid pan and practice making it slide - and counter-steering. Even if you have, take the 911 - it doesn't behave exactly the same as other cars, and you should get a feel for how it behaves, and for how to gauge weight transfer.

It's all about the weight-distribution; the only way I could get the rear to break loose was to approach turn-in at high-RPM/WOT, front suspension light, let the throttle slap entirely shut and turn-in/resume WOT as soon as weight transferred to the front (and unloaded the rear). Then counter-steer through the slide.

I found it very illuminating just how difficult it was to induce the rear to break loose with good tires, even in the wet with abrupt/violent changes of direction (hint: remove anything/everything loose in the cabin first). Took a lot more deliberate effort than I would ever have thought before I tried. Repeatedly.

If you don't lift off the throttle (or brake) whilst turning, you're probably quite unlikely to ever provoke this in normal driving at appropriate speeds... As a rule of thumb, aim to always be, at turn-in, driving the speed you intend to drive through the corner at. If you miscalculate, stick to it - the car is capable, and probably has far more in reserve than you think - driven correctly. Even if it feels pucker-inducing half-way round, unloading the rear is never the right thing to do...

Somewhat counter-intuitively, adding more throttle makes the rear squat, providing more grip at the rear (also unloads the front, reducing traction there). Kind of an advanced technique best avoided mid-corner... Develop your feel for the weight distribution first.

Also of interest may be the "Porsche High-Performance Driving Handbook" by "Quick Vic" Elford, who knew a thing or two about driving Porsches fast - including in rallies on loose surfaces, where much of his early career wins were.

He does talk about how you need to be careful to detect/be ready to control rear-end momentum on a rear-engined car, as pendulum effect will tend to make it get away from you faster than front or mid-engined cars would. As well as explaining concepts like how you can't use more than 100% of the traction available to the tires, and you need to choose whether to use that for braking, steering or transferring power.

I'll bet Ian texts in complete sentences with punctuation too...

MrScratch: I'll reinforce the advice to get some performance driving instruction. I'll suggest to start with Autocross at your local PCA chapter.

thanks! just ordered it

thanks
i'll do that as spring comes around

I joined PCA in around 1987. I started driving on track in 1988. Lime Rock Park with PCA. No karting or AX or anything related prior.

Transormative experience.

Arrived in Norcal in 1991. Lots of AX in the 90's, and time trialing, and racing until about 2017.

And instructing.

One of my old friends in the high-level AX space is Steve Lau:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pDeslmjf7g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJNm-U7wtQw

He and his wife are PCA and National Champs.

I was one of Steve's first AX instructors.

One of the first "reference materials" I reviewed for performance/competitive driving was the Skip Barber video "Going Faster." It was filmed at LRP in '86 or so, and I have been watching and recommending it since then.

In '94 I attended a PCA two-day AX school, and the leader of that had written a book called "Secrets of Solo Racing." We all got a copy.

Both reference materials are highly recommended.

My best student ever climbed the curve quickly, starting in a 944, then a 951 that was extensively developed over 5 year period. At the end it had about 360 bhp, a racing suspension and brakes, and big sticky dots. But it was still a 2900 pound street car.

Then we bought our current car, a 1950 pound 911 in 2001. Really a race car with lots of power and big sticky full slicks. And a 915. Very different from a heavy, high powered, front-engined 951.

She drove it in about 2-3 track days in Winter 2001-2002. First 2002 PCA time trial she started getting up on the tires in February 2002.

Second one, she got send overall in time trial at Laguna Seca in March '02.

Third one, she got TTOD at Buttonwillow. She beat the chief instructor. He had 2x the power in his very potent 911. He wrote "Secrets of Solo Racing."

As far as I know, only woman to get TTOD at a PCA TT.

Learned the basics, and focused on the craft.

For many, AX is a good place to start. A few events, then an AX school.

I bit less expensive in time and money than going straight to track events. And perhaps more readily accessible.

On a "cold" winter's day, 25 mph ...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1737251167.jpg


... in the shade.

I’m going to be a bit of an outlier here and not suggest you take classes (although an excellent idea) and say that as long as you keep your speeds reasonable, have tires that aren’t too old and not brake hard in corners, you won’t come anywhere near the limit.

I only had one real close call in my 35 years of 911 ownership and that was in the rain on ten year old tires turning onto an off ramp at too high of a speed; I didn’t loose control, but it was a wake up call and I got new tires the following week.

Only one answer to that question: "just try it!"

Thats the problem qith the internet advice to the Q you are asking. The advice is good - but you can't get a feel for it over the internet. Only your backside in the seat can feel it.
So you are going to forever be a nervous driver if you do not KNOW how far from the limit you are. You could be well inside but muck up a corner a bit and get very anxious and wonder how close you were.
Thats not really the way to enjoy a car that was meant to be driven.
Like most have said - experience the limit in a controlled environment, your confidence and understanding of the car, and an appreciation for what it is, will grow enormously. The internet can't do that for you.
Alan

Yeah, the internet is full of advice and this forum is no exception but keep in mind the common trait is that everyone here is a "survivor" of sorts at their own level of the hobby.

You won't hear from those who didn't ... and I don't mean in a literal sense ... here.