Best standalone for ITB setup in 2025?

[TopTuning]

MoTec is by far the best hardware and software platform, but you should go with what your tuner is most experienced with usually.

Also, ITBs are far superior with DBW.

I'm a MoTec dealer and make a cost effective DBW ITB system if you are interested just send me a message. I can offer significant discounts if buying my ITB kit with a MoTec ecu package.

[JKarow08]

Originally Posted by phunt

You said you were going to pay someone for tuning. So first thing “buy” your tuner. Pick the guy or shop you are most comfortable with. You going to pay for their expertise. So use what they are experts in. If you buy any particular ECU you maybe stuck with a guy or shop you aren’t necessarily comfortable with and you’re stuck. Lots of good choices for ECU’s. I think most important choice is who you are going to trust with your very expensive car.

I know this is the standard advice given for this question, and I definitely don't debate it's a sound approach. I also think there are two ways to look at this though, the other being to pick the best ecu for the motor/setup and find a tuner that can tune it. My Subaru ez30r swap was a good example of that approach...I picked the ecu based on what worked best for the motor, primarily the ability to handle the variable valve lift and timing with the factory sensors/solenoids, as well offering the option of fulltime closed loop tuning, and I knew the owner of the ecu company (Hydra) had a significant amount of experience tuning that motor and could provide a quality base map and long term support. I then found a tuner that was willing and able to tune the Hydra and also had experience tuning Subarus. I think a tuner having experience tuning the specific motor is more important than experience with the ecu, and any capable tuner should be able to navigate the tuning software of most standalones as the interfaces are all very similar. I guess the best route is to try to kill three birds with one stone and find the best ecu for your setup and a tuner that has experience not only with the ecu but also using it to tune your specific setup.

With these motors running ITBs, the limiting factor in ecu choice is not the ability to handle new features like variable valve timing and lift, but more so the quality and capabilities of their blended maps, more specifically a blended speed density/alpha-N map. Are you guys running blended maps and if so, what has your experience been with your specific ecu?

In WI it looks like Emtron may be the best option from the perspective that Kelly Moss not only has experience with it, but using it to tune this specific motor and setup. I need to call Eurosport Midwest again to see what ecu they typically use, I know they have experience dyno tuning Porsche air cooled ITB setups.

[JKarow08]

Originally Posted by TopTuning

MoTec is by far the best hardware and software platform, but you should go with what your tuner is most experienced with usually.

Also, ITBs are far superior with DBW.

I'm a MoTec dealer and make a cost effective DBW ITB system if you are interested just send me a message. I can offer significant discounts if buying my ITB kit with a MoTec ecu package.

I've always read Motec is the best option on the market, but in reading through the features of most of the top end standalones I'm failing to find what specifically sets them apart. Any chance you could provide me/us with a cliffs notes on what makes Motec far and away the best?

I've seen your ITB setups on ebay, have definitely spent some time drooling over them and contemplating going the DBW route. I'll shoot you an email and we can chat further on a package setup. Thanks!

[JKarow08]

Is anyone running full time closed loop on one of these motors?

[TopTuning]

Originally Posted by JKarow08

I've always read Motec is the best option on the market, but in reading through the features of most of the top end standalones I'm failing to find what specifically sets them apart. Any chance you could provide me/us with a cliffs notes on what makes Motec far and away the best?

I've seen your ITB setups on ebay, have definitely spent some time drooling over them and contemplating going the DBW route. I'll shoot you an email and we can chat further on a package setup. Thanks!

It's hard to fully articulate to someone that's not a professional tuner. Having used just about every system on the market today and the last 20 years, MoTec has some distinct advantages:

Adaptive strategies: MoTec definitely has the best control algorithms and system strategies. It's incredibly good at the hardest parts of tuning - quick throttle position change fueling, knock monitoring and control, idle control.

Customizable aux outputs: M1 brings 4d control tables for control of just about any hardware you can think of, from PWM pumps to simple relay control, running push button start or an AC compressor with PWM valves etc.

Fuel mapping: MoTec has the best fueling model of any modern aftermarket ECU. MoTec is the only company I know of you can send your injectors in for fuel 4d characterization. They also have a huge list of injectors they've already mapped. This with the most advanced fuel modeling makes tuning much, much easier and far more consistent.

Hardware durability: MoTec M1 ECUs are super heavy duty and durable. You can even upgrade the ECU to full marine grade, as in salt water immersion rated. They are using the absolute best on board components that essentially have a zero percent failure rate.

Customer support: MoTec USA is probably the best company to deal with ever. They offer a huge amount of support through their dealer market. I've spent plenty of hours on the phone or doing team viewer with their support, at no cost. Try that with any other company!


There are plenty of other reasons MoTec is the best. It's always my recommendation as a professional tuner, especially after having worked with cheaper systems. You get what you pay for.

[TopTuning]

Originally Posted by JKarow08

Is anyone running full time closed loop on one of these motors?

Pretty much all modern aftermarket ECUs are doing fuel corrections constantly with the wideband o2 sensor inputs. This gives great efficiency.

My turbo 75 911 gets nearly 25mpgon MoTec m130. ON E85

30mpg on 91 octane is easy.


This of course changes very quickly with application of throttle and 450hp on tap

[JKarow08]

Originally Posted by TopTuning

It's hard to fully articulate to someone that's not a professional tuner. Having used just about every system on the market today and the last 20 years, MoTec has some distinct advantages:

Adaptive strategies: MoTec definitely has the best control algorithms and system strategies. It's incredibly good at the hardest parts of tuning - quick throttle position change fueling, knock monitoring and control, idle control.

Customizable aux outputs: M1 brings 4d control tables for control of just about any hardware you can think of, from PWM pumps to simple relay control, running push button start or an AC compressor with PWM valves etc.

Fuel mapping: MoTec has the best fueling model of any modern aftermarket ECU. MoTec is the only company I know of you can send your injectors in for fuel 4d characterization. They also have a huge list of injectors they've already mapped. This with the most advanced fuel modeling makes tuning much, much easier and far more consistent.

Hardware durability: MoTec M1 ECUs are super heavy duty and durable. You can even upgrade the ECU to full marine grade, as in salt water immersion rated. They are using the absolute best on board components that essentially have a zero percent failure rate.

Customer support: MoTec USA is probably the best company to deal with ever. They offer a huge amount of support through their dealer market. I've spent plenty of hours on the phone or doing team viewer with their support, at no cost. Try that with any other company!


There are plenty of other reasons MoTec is the best. It's always my recommendation as a professional tuner, especially after having worked with cheaper systems. You get what you pay for.

Thanks a lot for that insight! I'm definitely not a professional tuner, but I do understand a lot of the differences you described, and as you said...you get what you pay for. And an the m130 is definitely not horribly priced compared to what Motec used to cost relative to other standalones on the market. Thos is exactly the feedback I was hoping for...choices, choices.

[JKarow08]

Originally Posted by TopTuning

Pretty much all modern aftermarket ECUs are doing fuel corrections constantly with the wideband o2 sensor inputs. This gives great efficiency.

My turbo 75 911 gets nearly 25mpgon MoTec m130. ON E85

30mpg on 91 octane is easy.


This of course changes very quickly with application of throttle and 450hp on tap

This wasn't my experience in the Subaru world when I was playing with them. At that point, most standalones were only capable of closed loop tuning at lower RPMs, and transitioned to open loop somewhere in the mid RPM range. That was part of why I selected a Hydra Nemesis at that point...it had enough processing speed to do full time closed loop which is a significant advantage. I assumed most upper Motec models were capable of full time closed loop, and figured many of the newer standalonea were also capable of it, which is why I was limiting my search to newer options on the market. I'm curious how many people are running full time closed loop on their ITB setups, was guessing only those with higher end/newer standalones were doing so.

[phunt]

Closed loop is were you want to be. Using all sensors and available information. Open loop is for start up. Sooner you can get into closed loop is good. I don’t like motec. I can’t explain why. Something I learned while researching ECUs I guess. I am sure they work. A lot do. I use haltec I chose them because they have an on board MAP sensor. As I am wanting speed density tuning. Speed density is tough with ITB. You have to average vacuum were a common plenum you know.

[TopTuning]

Originally Posted by phunt

Closed loop is were you want to be. Using all sensors and available information. Open loop is for start up. Sooner you can get into closed loop is good. I don’t like motec. I can’t explain why. Something I learned while researching ECUs I guess. I am sure they work. A lot do. I use haltec I chose them because they have an on board MAP sensor. As I am wanting speed density tuning. Speed density is tough with ITB. You have to average vacuum were a common plenum you know.

I'd be happy to help you overcome that with MoTec I have a lot of experience with Haltec as well. It's a good system for the price!

Very correct about running closed loop. The only real reason to not run it is to allow time for sensor warm up... Preheating the sensors to run at a cold start will eventually damage the sensor leading to premature failure. The large amount of condensation (even more with e85) can crack the ceramic. I still always run it to tune cold start and switch back to a 90 second delay after tuning is done. For customer cars I generally replace the o2 sensors before sending the car home.

MAP should NEVER be used as a main axis for ITB engines!

You want to run throttle position as your load axis (alpha-n) and use MAP & Barometric as a multiplier over the VE table. This can be done with a common plenum as you described. It can also be done nearly as well with a single throttles vacuum / boost input and software filtering.

[JKarow08]

Originally Posted by TopTuning

I'd be happy to help you overcome that with MoTec I have a lot of experience with Haltec as well. It's a good system for the price!

Very correct about running closed loop. The only real reason to not run it is to allow time for sensor warm up... Preheating the sensors to run at a cold start will eventually damage the sensor leading to premature failure. The large amount of condensation (even more with e85) can crack the ceramic. I still always run it to tune cold start and switch back to a 90 second delay after tuning is done. For customer cars I generally replace the o2 sensors before sending the car home.

MAP should NEVER be used as a main axis for ITB engines!

You want to run throttle position as your load axis (alpha-n) and use MAP & Barometric as a multiplier over the VE table. This can be done with a common plenum as you described. It can also be done nearly as well with a single throttles vacuum / boost input and software filtering.

Great stuff gentleman, keep it coming!

My research has told me a blended table of MAP and TPS is the best option for ITB setups due to the lack of reliable MAP signal at WOT/high RPMs. It sounds like a vacuum manifold fed by equal length vacuum hoses from each ITB is the best solution, but still not perfect at WOT. I know Megasquirt has had blended speed density/alpha-n maps avaliable for a long time, I'm assuming every other major standalone also offers the same solution at this point.

I know open loop should be used at start up and until the O2 is hot, and would definitely prefer running full closed loop after that, just wasn't sure if all of the standalones had the processing speed to maintain closed loop fuel control at upper RPM limits. That was part of why I limited my search to recently released ecu options though, figured everything new would have the capabilities my now almost decade old Hydra had.

[phunt]

I am not knocking motec. I think I picked haltec because of the on Board MAP sensor. I get it with ITB and map signal. But I will try MAP tuning first. And the haltec is small compact it fit my wants for mounting placement. I also liked the CAN inputs for dual lambda. I recently put an EFI staton my son’s mustang. Perfectly running car and I got the idea of fuel injection. Got what I thought was a reputable system just to find out it wasn’t good. Lots of problems. Worse was when I looked for help nobody with in 60 miles would touch it. That’s why I suggested finding a shop and tuner you liked and were willing to trust.

[JKarow08]

Originally Posted by phunt

Closed loop is were you want to be. Using all sensors and available information. Open loop is for start up. Sooner you can get into closed loop is good. I don’t like motec. I can’t explain why. Something I learned while researching ECUs I guess. I am sure they work. A lot do. I use haltec I chose them because they have an on board MAP sensor. As I am wanting speed density tuning. Speed density is tough with ITB. You have to average vacuum were a common plenum you know.

To be honest, I hadn't dug that deep into the Motec m130 as it was the least likely option for me due to price. As I've always heard Motec was the latest and greatest in technology, I just assumed they had a built in MAP sensor and on board wideband controller. After doing some research, I was shocked to find it has neither. Not only that, it looks like they offer multiple "configurations," meaning you have to pay more to get complete control and access of the ecu, and additional $3500 to unlock the full capabilities ($4900 total). Call me crazy but that is ridiculous when a $1200 EMU Black has an on board MAP sensor, wideband controller, and free future firmware upgrades. Unfortunately now I'm seeing that EMU Black doesn't have on board data logging. It looks like the Haltech s3/r3 lines are the only option that really brings together all of the modern functionality I'd want into one package.

[winders]

Originally Posted by JKarow08

My research has told me a blended table of MAP and TPS is the best option for ITB setups due to the lack of reliable MAP signal at WOT/high RPMs.

Using MAP just makes your setup more complicated than it needs to be. What do you think using MAP at lower RPMs is going to buy you that you won’t get with TPS and closed loop lambda??

[JKarow08]

Originally Posted by winders

Using MAP just makes your setup more complicated than it needs to be. What do you think using MAP at lower RPMs is going to buy you that you won’t get with TPS and closed loop lambda??

Well, in basic terms, basing fueling off of air flow (MAP) is more accurate than throttle position. TPS tuning on ITBs (from what I've read) in low load situations can be tricky and using a blended table where MAP is utilized up until about 20% throttle position looks to be the best solution to fix that issue. I'm not saying using TPS exclusively won't work or isn't an option, but in 2025 we have more accurate options at our disposal.

[montauk]

Originally Posted by JKarow08

Well, in basic terms, basing fueling off of air flow (MAP) is more accurate than throttle position. TPS tuning on ITBs (from what I've read) in low load situations can be tricky and using a blended table where MAP is utilized up until about 20% throttle position looks to be the best solution to fix that issue. I'm not saying using TPS exclusively won't work or isn't an option, but in 2025 we have more accurate options at our disposal.

I honestly don't know how I'll be setting mine up yet. MAP is part of the system so for a dollar's worth of vacuum hose, I hooked it up. I also added a fuel pressure sensor. I doubt that it's necessary but the sensor is only $150 so why not. I've got plenty of inputs/outputs on the Haltech R3. More data is never bad.

[winders]

Originally Posted by JKarow08

Well, in basic terms, basing fueling off of air flow (MAP) is more accurate than throttle position. TPS tuning on ITBs (from what I've read) in low load situations can be tricky and using a blended table where MAP is utilized up until about 20% throttle position looks to be the best solution to fix that issue. I'm not saying using TPS exclusively won't work or isn't an option, but in 2025 we have more accurate options at our disposal.

You go right ahead and make your hardware setup more complicated running all those vacuum lines and reservoir. Then make the tuning setup using a blended map.

I just don't know how we managed to get ITBs running properly all those years without MAP-based maps. Throw in real-time closed loop lambda compensation along with intake air pressure compensation and Alpha-N tuning works even better than I guess it didn't use to...

[Joesmallwood]

Originally Posted by winders

You go right ahead and make your hardware setup more complicated running all those vacuum lines and reservoir. Then make the tuning setup using a blended map.

I just don't know how we managed to get ITBs running properly all those years without MAP-based maps. Throw in real-time closed loop lambda compensation along with intake air pressure compensation and Alpha-N tuning works even better than I guess it didn't use to...

You sure have a way with words that makes all of us commoners feel inadequate and less-than-thee. "Righteous" is what comes to mind when I read something like this. So, you go on being righteous while the rest of us commoners learn for ourselves and make the some of the mistakes that you have, evidently, avoided all these years...

In your world, drivability below 20% might not matter since, while racing, you're likely at 0%TPS and 100% TPS a high percentage of the time. It's just the opposite here. I spend a high percentage of time between 5% and 30%.

I, too, have an ITB setup with AT Power, a common vacuum manifold, etc. I use 100% TPS load. But, I too, have contemplated using a blended TPS/MAP to see how effective it might be. I will learn how it works soon enough.

All said, I'll be sure to ask for input from you when I feel my confidence and self esteem is too high and I need to be beat down a bit. Lol

[JKarow08]

Originally Posted by winders

You go right ahead and make your hardware setup more complicated running all those vacuum lines and reservoir. Then make the tuning setup using a blended map.

I just don't know how we managed to get ITBs running properly all those years without MAP-based maps. Throw in real-time closed loop lambda compensation along with intake air pressure compensation and Alpha-N tuning works even better than I guess it didn't use to...

Take a deep breath, nobody is pi$$ing in your Cheerios here.

Can you make a solid tune on an ITB setup on TPS alone...absolutely. And you can make them run really well on carbs and a dizzy too. Are either the most advanced or effective methods in 2025...no. This is the same argument that is had over wasted spark vs full sequential ignition. Can you make them run great with no cam sensor on wasted spark...absolutely. Is it the most advanced solution today...absolutely not. Will the average person notice the difference on the average build...maybe not. But does that mean we should all revert to the simplest method of accomplishing a task? That's not how I operate.

In terms of added complexity, I see very little. If you want to run an IACV (I do), you need to run vacuum lines to a manifold anyway. Running one more to an on board MAP sensor is as simple as it gets, and the tuning is no more challenging than selecting a blended map strategy and tuning both individually at the appropriate RPM range, with some minor tweaking to the transition point.

There is a reason almost every current ITB kit include vacuum ports, and many include the vacuum manifold. Can they be tuned without it, sure, but in 2025 we have better options at our disposal. Build it how you want to...that's the fun of this hobby.

[JKarow08]

Originally Posted by Joesmallwood

You sure have a way with words that makes all of us commoners feel inadequate and less-than-thee. "Righteous" is what comes to mind when I read something like this. So, you go on being righteous while the rest of us commoners learn for ourselves and make the some of the mistakes that you have, evidently, avoided all these years...

In your world, drivability below 20% might not matter since, while racing, you're likely at 0%TPS and 100% TPS a high percentage of the time. It's just the opposite here. I spend a high percentage of time between 5% and 30%.

I, too, have an ITB setup with AT Power, a common vacuum manifold, etc. I use 100% TPS load. But, I too, have contemplated using a blended TPS/MAP to see how effective it might be. I will learn how it works soon enough.

All said, I'll be sure to ask for input from you when I feel my confidence and self esteem is too high and I need to be beat down a bit. Lol