Best standalone for ITB setup in 2025?
 

Ahoy,

I'm about to rebuild my 2.4l and am planning on running ITBs and COP. I know this is a loaded question, but what is the best current option for a standalone? I know this has been covered but computer technology evolves rapidly and standalone ecu options are constantly improving. My current shortlist includes Megasquirt ms3 pro evo, Ecumasters EMU black, Emtron shadow 8, Haltech Nexus S3, and Motec m130. I know there are cheaper models in each company's ecu line, but I'd like the newest option possible to maximize processing speed and ensure long term support. Cost is definitely a consideration, if one of the cheaper options is as effective as the Motec I'll definitely go that route.

Thanks in advance for your insight and opinions!

-Josh

I only know one, and it’s ECUMaster Black. Very happy with it. But find one that your local tuner is familiar with if you need help like I did with initial tuning. Best of luck. It’s fun!
Patrick

MoTec M130 or Emtron.....

I'm in the same process but I'm going with ECUmaster black mainly because of a tuner local to me who is a dealer and has a dyno.

Also the ECUmaster has integrated wideband support. Some others you need to buy a separate module for that.

There’s no single correct answer.

It’s all based on what you need, want, your limitations (tech, financial, etc…) and of course the car.

Give us some specifics and parameters and you’ll get a better response. Absent details, everyone will just blindly suggest the systems they know.

For my 2.7 with M1 cams, COP, ITBs and EFI, the MS3ProMini was perfect.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm using the Haltech Nexus R3 because it has a built-in PDU, which was a key factor in my decision. I also wanted native DBW support, which not all ECUs offer—some require an additional module. The R3 also includes wideband O2 and MAP sensors.

The onboard PDU eliminates the need for a relay panel, although the ECU/PDU combo is more expensive than using a separate ECU and relay board. If I need more control over higher amp loads in the future, I can always add relays. Currently, the four 25A outputs are set up to run the injectors, ignition, fuel pump, and starter solenoid.

Another great feature of the R3 is its WiFi capability, allowing me to connect my laptop without a cable. While this isn't a huge advantage in a small car, there's also an app for my phone, which is really convenient. It means I can monitor the ECU without having to carry my laptop around.

I hope to have it running soon but I feel like I've been saying that for weeks. Right now, I'm waiting for a K type thermocouple spark plug wire and some electronics to make it all work with the R3.

Ecumaster Black definitely looks to be the best bang for the buck, similar price to a ms3pro evo but sounds like it has better support and less "bugs" to sort out. Any complaints or issues tuning or wiring? The tuner I used for my last build (Subaru) seemed willing and able to tune on any standalone platform, had never touched a Hydra Nemesis 2.7 which I used for my ez30r swap (or tuned that motor), and by the end of my dyno session we were putting down as much power as anyone in the country with the same setup. Kelly Moss mentioned they use Emtron, but I'm pretty confident any competent tuner should be able to tune with any of these. Thanks!

Motec definitely has the best reputation, I'm just not sure if the added cost provides any features or capabilities any of these other options don't. Emtron seems to have a similar reputation to Motec at a slightly lower cost, Kelly Moss indicated they use it for their builds for that reason. The new Emtron Shadow 8 looks to be a great new option at a reasonable price point, just wish it had been released already so others could provide some feedback, a little scared to be the guinea pig.

Yeah, I knew this was kind of a loaded question, as you said, most only have experience with one and if it worked that becomes the best option. I'm just hoping to hear from those that had positive or negative experiences and see what is popular, having a community of feedback support is definitely helpful.

I'm still finalizing my build but it is looking like I'll be building a 2.4l with 9.7:1 compression, S heads, dc30 cams, racehead ITBs, single denso logic level COP, clewett crank/cam sensors, IAC, full sequential ignition, and knock control. I'm hoping/planning on running a blended map of speed density and alpha-n. The motor is going into my champagne yellow '73 911t, it'll be her first time back on the road since '79, doing a full restoration on her this summer.

The ms3pro mini is an amazing value...I'm going to run full sequential though so I ruled that one out.

Hhhmmmm...I didn't read much into the R3, didn't realize it had an on board PDU, that would definitely simplify some of the wiring. My only experience with standalone wiring was with a Hydra Nemesis 2.7 and it had a plug and play jumper to the factory ecu harness in my Subaru with flying leads to run the additional cylinders/sensors/etc, and I wired the merge as a jumper between the factory engine harness and the factory plug on the firewall. That was definitely a different animal in terms of wiring, and because it utilized most of the factory wiring I didn't have to consider where to draw power for injectors, coils, fuel pump, etc. An on board PDU would definitely simplify wiring when starting from scratch like I will be with this motor.

The wifi is definitely a plus, and I didn't even realize they had a phone app for monitoring, that would be really nice.

Hhhmmmm...

Another element to consider, that has been mentioned before is whether or not you're going to be tuning this yourself or paying someone. Something like Haltech has the ability to allow someone remotely log into the ECU and tune it which is really cool if you are building a super complex engine and anticipate issues... maybe not needed on more modest builds.

Megasquirt has a massive user base and active forums and is someone open source which may be helpful if you're going the DIY route.

I don't know much about the other brands. MoTec has been around forever and offers race-ready solutions which are pretty stunning in both engineering and cost...

If paying someone to tune it, I'd likely defer to their ECU of choice, particularly if they're a dealer and can provide aftermarket support...

And finally, you might want to consider (maybe not) if the ECU offers any outputs for accessories like gauges or displays... I know that a few of the ECU's (Megasquirt, MaxxECU) use a standard open source CANBUS protocol that enables anyone to receive data and use it as they wish. I'm not sure about the others and whether or not is proprietary or encrypted to their own products. Not necessarily a key factor but one to consider...

You never know when someone is going to develop a vintage 911-specific digital gauge for aftermarket ECUs that fits into the clock hole and blends in seamlessly with a hidden button while delivering 10 screens of customizable data on a high resolution anti-glare screen... ;)

Also MS3ProMini can run sequential fuel and wasted COP spark, totally fine for a non-race motor.

Haltech's CAN capabilities are impressive, and while I'd love to explore them further, my priority is getting my 911 back on the road.

One quirky issue I'm facing is finding a spot for the start/stop button without drilling holes in the dash, which I refuse to do. I think I'll replace the cigarette lighter with the button instead. If I need to charge my phone, I'll discreetly hide a couple of USB-C ports somewhere.

Another benefit of using an ECU is that I can wire a start/stop button in the engine compartment for testing purposes. Small thing but crawling under the car to hook up my remote starter button is a pain.

You know, you really should do that!!!

I'm definitely going to pay someone to tune it, just not sure who yet. Any suggestions on a midwest tuner that has experience with these motors running on ITBs? Midwest Eurosport in Chicago said they had experience dyno tuning this type of setup, need to give them a call again and see which ecu they prefer. When I had my Subaru dyno tuned I utilized VL Tuning in Appleton, WI and he did a fantastic job and wasn't afraid to tune on an unfamiliar standalone, was thinking about using them for this build as well. I know they are a Haltech dealer so I have considered going that route as that would provide local support. Kelly Moss indicated they use Emtron so that would be another local option.

I had initially planned on using a Megasquirt because I've always loved the open source nature and value, and their new offerings seem to compete with the best standalones on the market. Based on my needs/build it looks like the ms3pro evo would be my best option as I'd like to run full sequential ignition and knock control. I considered going wasted spark with a ms3pro mini, but it also lacks internal knock control so I figured it would be best to upgrade to the evo so I'd have both full sequential and knock control as long as I was already going through the standalone wiring headache.

Right now the plan is to use the factory gauges for originality, but being able to use a phone or tablet to monitor via wifi definitely is alluring.

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After doing a Subaru merge, starting from scratch like this on a simple motor in a chassis with limited electronics seems so easy. My head is still spinning from trying to decipher the wiring diagrams from 2 different cars/motors and getting them to blend seamlessly in one jumper.

But she sure screamed on the dyno when she was done, the "other, other" Porsche motor...

https://youtu.be/bXYaePMKvcI?si=IsWaUNMH25KjlYl3

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...amingdevil.gif Stay tuned...

DynoSource in Antioch, IL. and RCAutoworks in Bridgview, IL. both have experience tuning aftermarket stand alone systems.

Any idea which standalones they prefer? I can reach out if you don't know off the top of your head. I know some tuners are starting to only tune standalones they are dealers for, that became the case with VL Performance in Appleton. They wouldn't tune my car for the guy I sold it to even after they already tuned it once successfully and wanted to sell him a Haltech to replace it.

No idea off the top of my head- I know both did Megasquirt and that generally means they'll do anything they have software for... that may be the issue in the long run- Having a key or a license to alter the tune of an ECU might be an impediment...

You said you were going to pay someone for tuning. So first thing “buy” your tuner. Pick the guy or shop you are most comfortable with. You going to pay for their expertise. So use what they are experts in. If you buy any particular ECU you maybe stuck with a guy or shop you aren’t necessarily comfortable with and you’re stuck. Lots of good choices for ECU’s. I think most important choice is who you are going to trust with your very expensive car.

This

MoTec is by far the best hardware and software platform, but you should go with what your tuner is most experienced with usually.

Also, ITBs are far superior with DBW.

I'm a MoTec dealer and make a cost effective DBW ITB system if you are interested just send me a message. I can offer significant discounts if buying my ITB kit with a MoTec ecu package.

I know this is the standard advice given for this question, and I definitely don't debate it's a sound approach. I also think there are two ways to look at this though, the other being to pick the best ecu for the motor/setup and find a tuner that can tune it. My Subaru ez30r swap was a good example of that approach...I picked the ecu based on what worked best for the motor, primarily the ability to handle the variable valve lift and timing with the factory sensors/solenoids, as well offering the option of fulltime closed loop tuning, and I knew the owner of the ecu company (Hydra) had a significant amount of experience tuning that motor and could provide a quality base map and long term support. I then found a tuner that was willing and able to tune the Hydra and also had experience tuning Subarus. I think a tuner having experience tuning the specific motor is more important than experience with the ecu, and any capable tuner should be able to navigate the tuning software of most standalones as the interfaces are all very similar. I guess the best route is to try to kill three birds with one stone and find the best ecu for your setup and a tuner that has experience not only with the ecu but also using it to tune your specific setup.

With these motors running ITBs, the limiting factor in ecu choice is not the ability to handle new features like variable valve timing and lift, but more so the quality and capabilities of their blended maps, more specifically a blended speed density/alpha-N map. Are you guys running blended maps and if so, what has your experience been with your specific ecu?

In WI it looks like Emtron may be the best option from the perspective that Kelly Moss not only has experience with it, but using it to tune this specific motor and setup. I need to call Eurosport Midwest again to see what ecu they typically use, I know they have experience dyno tuning Porsche air cooled ITB setups.

I've always read Motec is the best option on the market, but in reading through the features of most of the top end standalones I'm failing to find what specifically sets them apart. Any chance you could provide me/us with a cliffs notes on what makes Motec far and away the best?

I've seen your ITB setups on ebay, have definitely spent some time drooling over them and contemplating going the DBW route. I'll shoot you an email and we can chat further on a package setup. Thanks!

Is anyone running full time closed loop on one of these motors?

It's hard to fully articulate to someone that's not a professional tuner. Having used just about every system on the market today and the last 20 years, MoTec has some distinct advantages:

Adaptive strategies: MoTec definitely has the best control algorithms and system strategies. It's incredibly good at the hardest parts of tuning - quick throttle position change fueling, knock monitoring and control, idle control.

Customizable aux outputs: M1 brings 4d control tables for control of just about any hardware you can think of, from PWM pumps to simple relay control, running push button start or an AC compressor with PWM valves etc.

Fuel mapping: MoTec has the best fueling model of any modern aftermarket ECU. MoTec is the only company I know of you can send your injectors in for fuel 4d characterization. They also have a huge list of injectors they've already mapped. This with the most advanced fuel modeling makes tuning much, much easier and far more consistent.

Hardware durability: MoTec M1 ECUs are super heavy duty and durable. You can even upgrade the ECU to full marine grade, as in salt water immersion rated. They are using the absolute best on board components that essentially have a zero percent failure rate.

Customer support: MoTec USA is probably the best company to deal with ever. They offer a huge amount of support through their dealer market. I've spent plenty of hours on the phone or doing team viewer with their support, at no cost. Try that with any other company!


There are plenty of other reasons MoTec is the best. It's always my recommendation as a professional tuner, especially after having worked with cheaper systems. You get what you pay for.

Pretty much all modern aftermarket ECUs are doing fuel corrections constantly with the wideband o2 sensor inputs. This gives great efficiency.

My turbo 75 911 gets nearly 25mpgon MoTec m130. ON E85

30mpg on 91 octane is easy.


This of course changes very quickly with application of throttle and 450hp on tap ;)

Thanks a lot for that insight! I'm definitely not a professional tuner, but I do understand a lot of the differences you described, and as you said...you get what you pay for. And an the m130 is definitely not horribly priced compared to what Motec used to cost relative to other standalones on the market. Thos is exactly the feedback I was hoping for...choices, choices.

This wasn't my experience in the Subaru world when I was playing with them. At that point, most standalones were only capable of closed loop tuning at lower RPMs, and transitioned to open loop somewhere in the mid RPM range. That was part of why I selected a Hydra Nemesis at that point...it had enough processing speed to do full time closed loop which is a significant advantage. I assumed most upper Motec models were capable of full time closed loop, and figured many of the newer standalonea were also capable of it, which is why I was limiting my search to newer options on the market. I'm curious how many people are running full time closed loop on their ITB setups, was guessing only those with higher end/newer standalones were doing so.

Closed loop is were you want to be. Using all sensors and available information. Open loop is for start up. Sooner you can get into closed loop is good. I don’t like motec. I can’t explain why. Something I learned while researching ECUs I guess. I am sure they work. A lot do. I use haltec I chose them because they have an on board MAP sensor. As I am wanting speed density tuning. Speed density is tough with ITB. You have to average vacuum were a common plenum you know.

I'd be happy to help you overcome that with MoTec :) I have a lot of experience with Haltec as well. It's a good system for the price!

Very correct about running closed loop. The only real reason to not run it is to allow time for sensor warm up... Preheating the sensors to run at a cold start will eventually damage the sensor leading to premature failure. The large amount of condensation (even more with e85) can crack the ceramic. I still always run it to tune cold start and switch back to a 90 second delay after tuning is done. For customer cars I generally replace the o2 sensors before sending the car home.

MAP should NEVER be used as a main axis for ITB engines!

You want to run throttle position as your load axis (alpha-n) and use MAP & Barometric as a multiplier over the VE table. This can be done with a common plenum as you described. It can also be done nearly as well with a single throttles vacuum / boost input and software filtering.

Great stuff gentleman, keep it coming!

My research has told me a blended table of MAP and TPS is the best option for ITB setups due to the lack of reliable MAP signal at WOT/high RPMs. It sounds like a vacuum manifold fed by equal length vacuum hoses from each ITB is the best solution, but still not perfect at WOT. I know Megasquirt has had blended speed density/alpha-n maps avaliable for a long time, I'm assuming every other major standalone also offers the same solution at this point.

I know open loop should be used at start up and until the O2 is hot, and would definitely prefer running full closed loop after that, just wasn't sure if all of the standalones had the processing speed to maintain closed loop fuel control at upper RPM limits. That was part of why I limited my search to recently released ecu options though, figured everything new would have the capabilities my now almost decade old Hydra had.

I am not knocking motec. I think I picked haltec because of the on Board MAP sensor. I get it with ITB and map signal. But I will try MAP tuning first. And the haltec is small compact it fit my wants for mounting placement. I also liked the CAN inputs for dual lambda. I recently put an EFI staton my son’s mustang. Perfectly running car and I got the idea of fuel injection. Got what I thought was a reputable system just to find out it wasn’t good. Lots of problems. Worse was when I looked for help nobody with in 60 miles would touch it. That’s why I suggested finding a shop and tuner you liked and were willing to trust.

To be honest, I hadn't dug that deep into the Motec m130 as it was the least likely option for me due to price. As I've always heard Motec was the latest and greatest in technology, I just assumed they had a built in MAP sensor and on board wideband controller. After doing some research, I was shocked to find it has neither. Not only that, it looks like they offer multiple "configurations," meaning you have to pay more to get complete control and access of the ecu, and additional $3500 to unlock the full capabilities ($4900 total). Call me crazy but that is ridiculous when a $1200 EMU Black has an on board MAP sensor, wideband controller, and free future firmware upgrades. Unfortunately now I'm seeing that EMU Black doesn't have on board data logging. It looks like the Haltech s3/r3 lines are the only option that really brings together all of the modern functionality I'd want into one package.

Using MAP just makes your setup more complicated than it needs to be. What do you think using MAP at lower RPMs is going to buy you that you won’t get with TPS and closed loop lambda??

Well, in basic terms, basing fueling off of air flow (MAP) is more accurate than throttle position. TPS tuning on ITBs (from what I've read) in low load situations can be tricky and using a blended table where MAP is utilized up until about 20% throttle position looks to be the best solution to fix that issue. I'm not saying using TPS exclusively won't work or isn't an option, but in 2025 we have more accurate options at our disposal.

I honestly don't know how I'll be setting mine up yet. MAP is part of the system so for a dollar's worth of vacuum hose, I hooked it up. I also added a fuel pressure sensor. I doubt that it's necessary but the sensor is only $150 so why not. I've got plenty of inputs/outputs on the Haltech R3. More data is never bad.

You go right ahead and make your hardware setup more complicated running all those vacuum lines and reservoir. Then make the tuning setup using a blended map.

I just don't know how we managed to get ITBs running properly all those years without MAP-based maps. Throw in real-time closed loop lambda compensation along with intake air pressure compensation and Alpha-N tuning works even better than I guess it didn't use to...

You sure have a way with words that makes all of us commoners feel inadequate and less-than-thee. "Righteous" is what comes to mind when I read something like this. :) So, you go on being righteous while the rest of us commoners learn for ourselves and make the some of the mistakes that you have, evidently, avoided all these years...

In your world, drivability below 20% might not matter since, while racing, you're likely at 0%TPS and 100% TPS a high percentage of the time. It's just the opposite here. I spend a high percentage of time between 5% and 30%.

I, too, have an ITB setup with AT Power, a common vacuum manifold, etc. I use 100% TPS load. But, I too, have contemplated using a blended TPS/MAP to see how effective it might be. I will learn how it works soon enough.

All said, I'll be sure to ask for input from you when I feel my confidence and self esteem is too high and I need to be beat down a bit. Lol

Take a deep breath, nobody is pi$$ing in your Cheerios here.

Can you make a solid tune on an ITB setup on TPS alone...absolutely. And you can make them run really well on carbs and a dizzy too. Are either the most advanced or effective methods in 2025...no. This is the same argument that is had over wasted spark vs full sequential ignition. Can you make them run great with no cam sensor on wasted spark...absolutely. Is it the most advanced solution today...absolutely not. Will the average person notice the difference on the average build...maybe not. But does that mean we should all revert to the simplest method of accomplishing a task? That's not how I operate.

In terms of added complexity, I see very little. If you want to run an IACV (I do), you need to run vacuum lines to a manifold anyway. Running one more to an on board MAP sensor is as simple as it gets, and the tuning is no more challenging than selecting a blended map strategy and tuning both individually at the appropriate RPM range, with some minor tweaking to the transition point.

There is a reason almost every current ITB kit include vacuum ports, and many include the vacuum manifold. Can they be tuned without it, sure, but in 2025 we have better options at our disposal. Build it how you want to...that's the fun of this hobby.

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