My turn to ask - value of early 911L Soft Window Targa...
 

Hi there folks. After giving my opinion on many different cars that people have posted, I have an unusual one here I'm trying to value. I may have an opportunity to purchase this car, but I can't quite put my finger on the value of it. I have spoken with many, many people regarding this car and I seem to get opinions all over the board.

It's a 1968 911L in very good condition (probably about an 8 out of ten). No concours, but you could enter it in wash and shine easily. Good interior, maintained well, and rust-free from what I can tell (AZ car, now in CA). Front and rear roof are good, and the engine seems strong, although I've only seen the car for about ten minutes and haven't inspected it. The color is red, and the paint is very good.

The question is, what (as potential buyers of something like this) is the 911L soft window targa worth? Sam Cabiglio (the guy who does all of Jerry's cars) had almost the same exact car at the 356 concours two weeks ago, except his was a '69S. Externally, the two cars are exact twins (same color, same trim, same soft-window targa). The 69S is for sale at $35K.

For those who don't know, the 911L was the US version of the 'S' model. It came with the 'S' package, but the engine was detuned down to meet US emissions specs for that year. I think there were only about 200-300 soft window 911L Targas made.

What's it worth, do you think?

-Wayne

Hi Wayne,
I was curious to find out what the 911L was worth because I just bought my first Porsche, a 1968 911S soft window targa. The car is in very good condition. It has about 300 miles on a new engine and new paint. The car is completely original with less than 70,000 miles on it. The best part is that I have not found any rust. The car does need a new rear window and some interior work.
I have found some production numbers that say there were 442 911S targas built in 1968. I wonder if they were all soft windows?
This car is number 36 built that year. From what I have read the 68's weren't officially imported. The former owner told me this car was brought into the states in 1973. Would this make the car more valuable because they weren't imported that year?

The only comparable I could find was this 67 soft window that the guy's at European Collectables have for $18,500. I think that it is incorrectly badged as an s. Best of luck.

Shawn.

From what I can tell from vintage documents, the soft window was an option in 1968, so there wasn't too many of them made.

Your 1968 911S would be valuable no matter what, as these were European cars only, and quite desireable. The 911Ls are very desireable as well (almost as much as an 'S')...

-Wayne

don't you have good connections with BA...isn't he the price meister?

let us know I'd be curious about what it is worth...

I've had 3 offers to buy the orange painted shell and the soft rear window parts already...Although I think the RS (RS-clones) cars are awesome and I still lust after one, I've been hearing more and more interest in the soft rears...

MJ

what do you want to do with it? They only made a couple hundred at most, so it is "rare" (can't figure out Morgan's numbers, and evidently the hard rear window was an option in '68, so that confuses the totals).

The L was imported into the US in '68, as was the "normal" car.

In my worthless opinion, I'd value a 911L softindow Targe exactly the same as a 911S Targa for 2 reasons.

It essentially was the 911S for that year, and fits with the character of the Targa.

It is a one-year-only car, and is both interesting and desirable. Not a low-cost "912E" type pretender.

I'd get a bigger kick out of seeing a mint 911L at a show, than a mint 911S, simply because you just "don't see that everyday".

Wayne,
Sorry to question you, but all of the books I have read indicate that the 911L was not the US version of the S simply detuned. It was a luxury version of the 130hp 911 normal offered in the previous production year. In 1968 the non-US market was offered the 911T, 911E, 911S. The US was offered the 911L which was suppossed to be the same as the 911E offered abroad. Pretty dumb of Porsche, since the US was their biggest market.
As for value, based upon your desription, I would estimate that it's worth $11-13k. Some people really really like the soft window targa. I am not a big fan of them for two reasons: 1) the plastic rear window is suppossed to be a pain in the ass to zip on and off and like all plastic exposed to the elements it tends to cloud up over time. 2) it leaks more than a hard window targa and is easier to break into than the targa top, since the soft top makes it more or less a cabriolet with a roll bar.

Yeah, so you're one of those geniuses that cut the split out your split window '63 Vette because it was such a pain, right?

When has practicality ever factored in to the value of a rare collector car?

Also, what's the difference between an S with a detuned engine, and a luxury version of a normal? The only difference between an S optioned 911 and an actual S is just the engine's state of tune, so it's six one way and half a dozen the other.

Either way the L was the flagship model that year.

Actually according to Morgan it is the other way around. Soft window was standard until the start of 1968 when the hard window was an option (with soft window still standard). Hard window remained an option until 1971 when it became standard.

The numbers in Morgans book do not delineate between hard and soft though:

'68 model year
911L - 720
911L Targa - 307
911L US - 449
911 Targa US - 134

Hard to figure those numbers with the text though, as he says the US market was starved ot T, E, and S, only getting "Normal" and L models. In '69 the E replaced the "normal" and L. But the production data chart doesn't mention an E for '68, only 911, T, L, and S.

No matter what the details, it is a pretty rare car...total production in the low hundreds or less, and only made for a year.

Tyson,
Where did your ref to splitting out a split rear window vette come from? And further, why would the split rear window be a pain???
I don't known why you would put as much value on a 68L soft window targa as you would for a 1968 911S, but I am certain a few of the guys on the S Registry would love to take you up on that offer if you have an S to trade. By the way, what is a 72 RS roadster?

Nostatic,
One explaination why the reason the E is not mentioned in Morgan's book for 1968 is because the L was the E.

$13K

The split window reference was to the fact that both the soft window Targa, and the split rear window Vette were considered at the time, to be impractical, and many Vette owners had it removed to improve rearward vision. Just like early soft window Targa owners had them replaced with glass rear windows. The point being that their uniqueness and rarity make them more desirable today than the more "practical" glass window Targa's or split window Vette's.

The reason I'd value the 911L soft window Targa the same as a '68S is purely due to uniqueness and rarity, with a little "cool" factor thrown in. Look at the production numbers. It's rare and desirable.

The '72 RS Roadster is, well, in development. I'm not into originality with my own cars. More into individuality. It's basically a '72 based RS clone, but in convertible form. Hard to describe.

Hard to catch, too. :cool:

Thanks Jack. :) fun little car to drive, isn't it?

BTW, Blau99, I am just offering my own opinion. I am no valuation expert by any stretch of the imagination. The S is surely more valuable, but I simply think the rarity of the L model, combined with the rarity of the SwTarga model is worth a premium. i mean, the '68 S isn't exactly a screamer, performance-wise, and targas really aren't about track duty. I think the value in a very early 911 is in it's rarity, uniqueness, originality, condition, and desirability. A 911L SWTarga is a stacked deck, IMO.

Hey, I did say in the beginning that it was my "worthless" opinion. :)

I'm by no means an expert on Porsche pricing, but I did just buy a '68 911L sunroof car, so I've done a lot of research lately.

1968 911L is a 911S with a 911's motor. The S motor didn't pass US emissions that year, so both the posters who said its a detuned S and the posters who said its a nicer 911 are both right...

I have no idea how much being targa or soft-window adds to the value. The 911L isn't a valuable car by any means... its kind of a bastard car -- underpowered for its looks, etc. As such, even in really good condition they don't seem to be worth more than $12k to $13k tops. FWIW, I got mine for substantially less than that ($8k) with essentially a brand-new motor (less than 200 miles since a full rebuild). It had some minor rust, nothing serious. I think the gas tank support will need to be cut out and replaced in a year or two, but its structural right now.

Even that price was likely high from what I found, but the car has a lot of brand new parts on it, and the previous owner has a lift in his barn I've been monopolizing for a few weeks having things done to the car. (Actually driving it home today!) :D

So I'm not sure if thats any help, but I doubt that car is worth, even in pristine condition, much more than $10k to $12k... and that'd be figuring its got a real recent engine rebuild.

You'd think so... unfortunately for L owners, and fortunately for us recent buyers, thats not the case... even though production numbers for all the L's were very low, there's no market for them. Its one of those cars whose value is maxed out by a general lack of demand in the market place. Its one of the few 911's that can't justify a full restoration, from what I've been told. (Which is fine by me, I'm going to drive mine until it falls apart, and put the motor in a new chassis and keep on driving!)

I have restored 2 67S soft windows and now I am doing a 68S soft window that originated in Monoco.
I never get into debates on any on the boards over anyones opinion........but, Tyson's thoughts on L being as valuable as a S is far from the truth. That would be like saying a 427 Vette and a 327 Vette convertable from 65 are worth the same $$. With all else the same, the same car with the top of the line engine is worth more. (Example: 356 normal vs 356 Super) Given all things the same, the super is going to bring more $$.
The 68 softy is the rarest 911S built as 442 Martin said,442 units.
In Febuary a man in Mass. brought me into a barn to show me a 67 normal soft window that was restored at a tune of about 60K. The car was 1st class all the way. I was told this car could be bought for about 25K. I feel this was a good deal.
I have had offers in the mid 40's for the car I am restoring now.
The soft window is basically a true convertable. I don't find them that pleasing to the eye, but the value of these cars will go up in the future.
As I have said in other posts, a cars value is based on condition.
I can't give the car Wayne is looking at a real value without seeing it.
A ballpark would be 12 to 16K.
If the car I am restoring now was not a "S", I would have never bought it. I could have never even recovered the restoration cost.
After Hershey, there was a brief thread about the guy there who had a 67S softy from New York that wanted 65K! That's out of the ballpark for sure.
The term "restored", is a very broadly used term.
When I say restored, it's more like a remanufacturing process. Every nut and bolt either replaced or replated.
To some, "restored", means a $2000 paint job, new carpet kit, and a valve adjustment!
A 68S and a 68L are the same car except for the MOTOR!! That's the differance!! The motor.
Last year my uncle died, and had been restoring a Cadillac convertable from the 20's. My aunt asked me to find the right value for the car so she could put it in Hemmings.
Every Caddi expert in the country asked the same question. Which motor does it have? The big one?
It didn't, so the car was worth 40% less due to the smaller powerplant.

I'm with Rick. It doesn't matter how few cars there are if there are fewer buyers than car. Once you cross the low-teens price threshold, you're into unrestored 911S territory and the 911L stops making sense. Just my 2 cents.

Emanuel

IMHO...soft window=desireable. 911L? A con job foisted on wannabe "S" owners back in '68. All the "L" means is S cosmetics, with the same standard (and not so good because of USA regulations, Corvair air pump and all.) engine of that year. Of course it's rare. All 911L's are rare. For good reason. The enthusiasts of the time didn't buy them. They were out hunting for '67 911S cars. Sort of like I hunted for a 1972-1973 car after my first view of the then new '74 models.

According to BA in the May 2002 issue, the 68L Targa has a value of $8,480 to $12,908. No differentiation for soft/hard window. On the other hand, the 68S is listed at only $9,479 to $14,448, so do these numbers really mean anything in the real world?? -- Curt

Have Bruce's numbers ever meant anything to people other than insurance adjustors????

I actually agree with Rick and Paul that an S is worth more than an L. Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all stating that they are actually worth the same. What I should have said was that to me , as in "my worthless opinion" (which you'll notice I started this whole thing out with) is how they should be valued, simply based on it being a rare and quirky car.
Hey, I really love Soft Window Targa's!

Just giving an opinion here, and I still think that the very early pre-'69 cars should be valued very differently than the later ones.

I mean, what's worth more? A 356 Super 90 Coupe, or a 356 Normal Speedster? I'm just theorizing that the very early soft windows are going to be valued based more on these features than their powerplants down the line. Basically because they aren't really bought for their performance.

But, the reality is, that you never know what the trends will be. My favorite, would be the '67S soft window, or one of the first 500 or so '65 911's in very original shape. Something that's like taking a step back in time, when the 911 was more 356-like.

Sounds like we are all basically on the same page.
As far as the published values in Excellance, (lets not fire this up again!), Bruce told me he only reports what is sent to him. Shame on those that don't report. Most of the buyers that I sell early 911's to are not reporting.But for anyone to say that values of early 911 S cars is not heading upward is living deep in the woods.
As I stated before, I don't see these SW Targa's as beautiful,but they are close to being a actual convertable. If a Chevy Impala,Buick, BMW, or Porsche, the ragtop brings a longer dollar every time, condition being equal.

Hey Wayne!

Sounds like a nice car. I think the guys have you pointed in the right direction with price $8 to $10k would be my guess.

I'm currently restoring a 68' 911L coupe. Why does anybody restore a car? To recoup their loss at a later date? Yeah, sure. I'll surely never get back the money I put into the car but that isn't the reason I'm doing it. The L was a fairly rare car, it was hated, it was put down at the time for both the smog pump motor (a one year wonder) as well as the door panel design. Try getting door panels for a 68'. It won't happen. Most people backdate to 67' panels which is a crime IMHO but then again I'm a concours guy.

The posted information stating that the 911L was totally different than the S and "just" a luxury basic 911 is a little innacurate. This is easily varified buy decoding the VIN# on the car. 911L bodies are 911S bodies with 911S VIN#s. They are listed in Porsche's records as 911S models, not 911Ls. This is actually a little known fact. The plain or standard (what we like to call the "butt" model) 68' 911 model chassis numbers were listed in the records as 911L US coupe or targa. Very weird. I actually talked with both Bruce Anderson and PCA tech chairman Ed Mayo about this fact and both were miffed! The car was a 911S without the motor, plain and simple. The cars came with "S trim", velour carpet, "elephant hide" embossed vinyl and could be ordered with any of the "S" options. The only difference was the motor and the name.

911Ls are rare. Their weird. But they are basically a snapshot of the problems Porsche was facing at that point in time. I don't consider 68' 911S cars to be worth more or less than 911Ls as these cars were not imported to the US and are therefore "grey market". This is one area where I agree with BA and therfore always discount grey market cars 15 to 20%. This is more an issue with someone who is going to restore and show the car in concours which is typically the reason why people buy these cars in the 1st place. If your buying a grey market car to race it then that's different and the discount actually works in your favor.

Is the L worth the same as an S? If it's a 68' S I'd say yes but any other year S would command a higher price. S cars always carry a higher price tag just based on the motor alone.

Now there is another worthless opinion :)

Kenr-

Wayne,

Have you and the current owner discussed pricing? If so can you give us a ballpark range?


If you feel uncomfortable divulging this info I'd understand.

Kenrinc's comments offer add'l info, but I respectfully disagree that a 1968 911S is worth less because of its "grey market" status.
The grey market value is a myth to me? Just because it is not sold in the USA, it becomes "grey" market which I assume is negative? Having lived in Germany for a few years, visited most European countries and seen a few of the early 911's while there, I would argue that Europeans - and specifically Germans - take much better care of their cars than most Americans. In Germany for instance, cars with any significant rust are not allowed by the state to e driven, and they are required to pass inspections by the TUV which are very stringent. That's why you don't see junk driving around in Germany like you do here in the USA. Most Germans are not the wheeling dealing hucksters that you often find in our country buying/selling antique sports cars trying to use a fresh coat of paint to hide a total disaster. Grey market is a cooked up label used by US used car dealers.
As for value, if anyone on this board wants to trade me their 1968 911S for a 1968 911L, let me know ASAP and I will go find a good 911L to trade.
By the way Wayne, I have a 67 911 and I truly hope you end up buying the 911L just so you can be inspired to write more about repair and performance upgrades specifically for the early SWB's...

I agree with kenrinc, the prices of a '68L should not be less than any other model that year. The L had 130 HP the most available that year.

There is something to be siad for having a quirky/rare car though, when I go to shows or events it nice to stand out. A 68L softwindow with a sporto now that would draw a lot of attention.

Blu 911........We seem to be on the same page. I brought in 600+ "gray market cars between 1982-1985. I have a feel for their value. In the old collector cars it makes no differance.
Keep in mind folks......ALL 2.7 73 CARRERA RS CARS ARE GRAY MARKET!!!!!
Tell those boys, (including myself), that gray market cars need to be downgraded. Any car 25 years old or older, it makes no differance.
The differance is if the car was brought in a long time ago before the 25 year rule and was butchered during the DOT conversion,
then it would have to be done back properly to be up to value.
I guess we have gotten way off the original topic......Sorry guys.

I always thought of grey market cars of the early 930's that were hacked up to be made smog legal...although some were done correctly I think the rabid Porsche market of the 80's and people trying to make a quick buck produced some pretty F'ed up cars

RICK: I am doing a backdate on a 73.5 chassis. I have acquired most of the soft widow pieces and are refurbishing them now...I hope I can call on you for some info about installing a soft rear window...I think I have it pretty much figured out...but knowing and executing are 2 entirely different things...

MJ

Ooo, good point. I second that. Buy it, no matter what he's asking! ;)

All points well taken guys and thanks for the dialog. That is just my opinion on "grey market" cars. I understand that some find that crazy but hey, I do realize that there are a ton of other people lined up behind that 68' S ready to plop down their cash and that's fine with me. Now of course on the flip side, I have no problem restoring a "grey market" car cause I know a lot of people in that line ready to buy ;)

Sorry for getting so OT.

Kenr-

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/1968911l2.jpg


this stock is going to moon....buy it now while it is still reasonable.... (no reasonable offer of $12K refused, or i'll take any cabriolet in trade)


joe 68 L

Joe,
You have a hardtop 68 targa. That is the rare option, since all pre-69 targas came standard as softops. However, since I already have a 67 sunroof coupe and with a 911S engine, I am covered on the SWB front. Car looks nice though. Why would you sell for a cab? I believe the first cab's came in 83 with the last year of the SC. Are you thinking of going to an SC or newer?

it's not a hardtop...it has been recovered in a very fine material and i take REALLY good care of it. as far as switching, i just really like convertables. don't get me wrong, i really love my car and get LOTS of comments and compliments. my dream rig would be a C2 cab. there was an 83 sc cab for sale here for 13K last summer and i didnt jump at it. wish i had.

joe

Joe,
My error. I was referring to the targa glass itself, not the targa top. I assume that you are referring to the targa top, right? By the way, did the 68L come with MFI or Webers?

Webers

Think he means the rear window is soft and was redone. very nice

911 L (not a Targa, I don't think) on Recycler this morning for $3000. http://recycler.com/asp/AdResults.asp?optWtd=0&optSrc=5&curNP=&curXP=5000& iNYr=&iXYr=1977&sKW=por+911&bAnd=1&iSC=5000&sAC=%2 7All%27&dtDF=7%2F10%2F2003&bIP=0&cmdBtn=Find+It%21