78 SC Ignition Switch problems

[rpo420]

Gents,
so this morning my episode was fuel pump relays.. Got that fixed and had a glorious day on the road. Tonight went to fill up at the station. Shut off the car. When put the key back in the key turned all the way to the right. Both red lights north and south on the temp and druk pressure gauge went on full red. The key turns all the way to the right, never the resistance where it would engage the starter and basically goes all the way to the right and doesnt return. I obviously something inside the starter went bad. also to note the car is old, and the key is by no means nice and snug in the ignition anymore.

Any one have any ideas about this? 956 $$ for a new ignition switch is not an option for me. i saw that they also sell just the inside ignition switch for 114$. Thats more my speed. Anyone know about re-keying these as well??

thanks !

[stormcrow]

Do a search for ignition switch plug replacement. You can replace the end plug on the ignition switch - but it's a bear to get to. I am certain our host sells one.

The spring loaded section is held onto the ignition by two screws then the electrical plug plugs into it. If you look under your dash while standing on your head you will see what I am talking about.

The best way to do it is to remove the front lower leather bolster that goes across the front - there are three screws holding it in place - that makes things a whole lot easier when dealing with under the dash issues.

Here's the link to the page - it's the first item listed - goes for around $110 - $114.

[rpo420]

Thanks Stormcrow. i appreciate it.. i have actually changed the entire ignition switch out once before,. but not just the internal. I will work on this and post shots.

[rpo420]

stormcrow, this is rediculous.. i got the part, but there is no human way to get to the top bolt.. the article i read was for a 928. Very roomy surroundings compared to our 9's. Same thing, but its impossible to get to the top bolt to get it out.. simply impossible. I think i will just have to pull the entire ignition assembly, key and all out of it. there is just no way to reach it with any too. known to man. if anyone has left an ignition in the car and pulled this off they deserve a medal of honor and must be a contortionist.

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by rpo420

stormcrow, this is rediculous.. i got the part, but there is no human way to get to the top bolt.. the article i read was for a 928. Very roomy surroundings compared to our 9's. Same thing, but its impossible to get to the top bolt to get it out.. simply impossible. I think i will just have to pull the entire ignition assembly, key and all out of it. there is just no way to reach it with any too. known to man. if anyone has left an ignition in the car and pulled this off they deserve a medal of honor and must be a contortionist.

Rpo,

Removing the two (2) tiny screws holding the circular plastic part is probably the most tedious job anyone would ever encounter in a 911. I could have done a valve adjustment and a change oil faster than removing these hard to reach fasteners. Not only that the screws are in tight spot, you got to be a contortionist to perform such task with seat installed. But I have done the removal twice!!!!! So it is doable.

People have done this task before many times over. It needs patience, perseverance, and determination to succeed. And most of all the right tool for the job. I have removed or dismantled almost every conceivable parts in a 911 (SC's & Carrera) and this one is top on my list as the most tedious task I've encountered so far. Could you name one worst than this one?

Tony

[Walt Fricke]

Not impossible at all. Just tedious and painful,

[jhmol]

I just "fixed" my ignition switch. Now it really doesn't work. Similar symptoms to your initial post except if I double clutched, reset the parking brake, turned the wheel a couple times and said a short prayer the car would fire up 8 times out of 10. So I tried a dry lubricant in the ignition switch hoping for 10 out of 10. Now nothing out of 100. I get the battery, oil, O2, brake lights and whine but the car does not turn over.
It is an 82 SC with 90K miles. I want it to be reliable.
What are my options?... and making the car a static display is not one.
Thanks!!!!!
John

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by jhmol

I just "fixed" my ignition switch. Now it really doesn't work. Similar symptoms to your initial post except if I double clutched, reset the parking brake, turned the wheel a couple times and said a short prayer the car would fire up 8 times out of 10. So I tried a dry lubricant in the ignition switch hoping for 10 out of 10. Now nothing out of 100. I get the battery, oil, O2, brake lights and whine but the car does not turn over.
It is an 82 SC with 90K miles. I want it to be reliable.
What are my options?... and making the car a static display is not one.
Thanks!!!!!
John

Really, only one option--you need to replace the electrical portion of the switch. The dry lube had nothing to do with the ultimate failure as the lube only aids the moving of the lock pins and the cylinder. The fact you still get the dash lights to come on says that the cylinder is turning the electrical portion through all positions and electrical contact is made except in "start."

There is one more possibility and it's a more expensive repair. The mechanical part of the lock turns the electrical portion via a "+" shaped pin fits into the slot of the electrical part. That pin is pot metal and sometimes cracks and twists due to the constant twisting over the years. If it twists far enough, without breaking, it can still turn the switch through its "on" and "run" positions, but not far enough (or is it strong enough) to twist through the spring resistance of the "start." If the pin breaks off, which it eventually will, you will get no response when turning the key--no dash lights, no power.

To be sure what your problem actually is, you will need to take off the electrical part, at least, or remove the entire switch.

[jhmol]

Thank you L.J. I will get the switch ordered asap and attempt the contortionist repair.
So if the dry lube only helped the key turn... why did I go from 8 out of ten starts to zero out of (now) a hundred attempts? Just wondering.
JHM

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by jhmol

Thank you L.J. I will get the switch ordered asap and attempt the contortionist repair.
So if the dry lube only helped the key turn... why did I go from 8 out of ten starts to zero out of (now) a hundred attempts? Just wondering.
JHM

Before you order any part, check to see just what the problem is. I outlined two possibilities but you won't know which it is until you disassemble the switch. The most likely is the electrical part, but it still may be the mechanical part (much more expensive.) Once you get the electrical part off, you can see if the pin is twisted and you can check the "start" position of the electrical portion with a screwdriver.

As to why you have no starting after lubing the lock, I can only surmise that the ease of turning the key/cylinder simply sped up the deterioration of whatever part was faulty. My worry, for you, is that you had a cracked/weakened pin and the ease of turning, with full force after lubing, caused it to twist further.

[jhmol]

No problems. I don't like throwing money away any more than anyone else... but I really want to get the car back on the road. Just way too much fun driving it than to have it sit in the garage. I'll get the switch out, take a look and let you know. Thanks again....
JHM

[jhmol]

Okay... no miracle occurred... but I've tried starting it maybe 20 more times. Nothing but lights... but now I'm noticing another symptom that L.J. may be able to use for his diagnosis. When I turn the steering wheel I get a smooth metal on metal rubbing sound. The wheel turns fine and if I take the key out the wheel will lock but it is definitely there... and I don't think it should be. Is this pointing to the $900+ fix rather than just the switch? How will I know when I get the switch out? That is my task for tomorrow.

[ossiblue]

I don't think your latest observation is related to the no start problem, but it may be related to the mechanical part--or not. You may just be hyper-sensitive to the function of the lock/wheel since you've been focusing on the start issue. Clearly, the lock is returning into the steering shaft to lock the wheel, and it is being retracted so the wheel turns freely. Still, there may be something gumming up the works a bit that allows a bit of contact between the retracted shaft and the steering column. You also may be hearing some other metal to metal contact within the steering wheel/horn ring/turn signal cancel ring assembly.

Once the lock is removed, you will be able to tell what your problem area is. You'll be able to extend and retract the lock shaft when you turn the key. The shaft does extend beyond the housing of the lock when fully retracted so don't be concerned if that is what you notice. (see below)


Here is a video clip that shows how to remove the lock but, to your issue, once the lock is removed you can see how far the shaft extends and you can see wear marks along the edges where the shaft has contacted the steering column (seen at 2:39 of the video.)

[jhmol]

Thanks for the info and the video. I am much more confident about getting the whole deal out of the car. I read one forum about removing the steering wheel. I'd prefer not to. And I saw that they took the lower dash off. I think I can get the bolts off without messing that up too.
The car is a rebuild by Nick Schumacher. It is beautiful. I really want to keep it that way.

[jhmol]

Okay... the video really helped. Thanks. The switch is out. Pictures attached. The only thing abnormal to the untrained eye is that one screw was loose on the ignition switch which allowed the switch to back off the mechanical portion just a wee bit. The "+" piece of metal from the mechanical to the electrical is more of a "-" but there were no bits sitting in the gap and no obvious wear and tear and it appears to turn the steering wheel locking mechanism fine.
So where does the starter get its juice and how do I test this thing before I put it all back together? OBTW a new switch is on the way. Please tell me I don't need a new mechanical portion.


And thanks for all the help.
John

[jhmol]

One more tidbit...reading the forum, some complained that after the new switch was installed it required that they turn the key all the way counterclockwise before trying a restart. Related but different, when I turn the key to start, there is no spring that returns the key to run. That is nothing different than before the "no start" problem but also may be a symptom.

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by jhmol

One more tidbit...reading the forum, some complained that after the new switch was installed it required that they turn the key all the way counterclockwise before trying a restart. Related but different, when I turn the key to start, there is no spring that returns the key to run. That is nothing different than before the "no start" problem but also may be a symptom.

The above bold part of your post indicates a fault in the electrical portion. When you release the key from "start," it should spring back into the run position. Looks like your electrical part is, indeed, faulty.

You can test it for starting, however, very easily. Keep the electrical part separated from the lock and plug in the electrical harness from under the dash. Using a blade screwdriver, simply turn the "+" on the back of the electrical unit to the right. Your ignition should go through all its sequences including meeting resistance at the "start" position and at the far right turning, the engine should crank. Releasing pressure on the screwdriver should allow it to spring back to the run position. If the above test doesn't happen, use the new unit in your ignition when you receive it.

The lock-out you describe which prevents a restart without first turning the key all the way to the left is a function of the mechanical lock portion.

[jhmol]

Well. If the "start" spring is in the electrical switch, it ain't working anymore. I just tried turning the switch in my hand with the screwdriver. It turns, but there is no spring turning it back to "run." Is that it?

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by jhmol

Well. If the "start" spring is in the electrical switch, it ain't working anymore. I just tried turning the switch in my hand with the screwdriver. It turns, but there is no spring turning it back to "run." Is that it?

Yep, that's it. I suggest you try the test again with the unit plugged into the ignition harness. See if you get the starter to crank when you reach the far right position. Just a double check that the unit is junk.

[RDM]

John,

In turning your key, I think the "start" portion of the travel was locked out. The system that keeps you from engaging the starter when the engine is already running is also preventing you from getting from "run" to "start." I don't know if that's electrical or mechanical, but these guys do.

Dru