911 vs Pantera

jyl · jyl's Garage

Following on the 911 vs 308 and 911 vs Esprit discussions, I wanted to mention the choice on my mind - 911 vs Pantera.

AFAIK, Panteras are exotic-looking and you don't see one on every block, use sturdy American V-8s, can be made as powerful as you please (Ford 460 with twin Hollys on a big GM blower, anyone?) and are actually sort of collectible or at least non-depreciating. I also gather they are rather kit-car-ish with cooling problems but that most of those issues will have been sorted by now. They're not all that expensive to buy, roughly in the 308 range.

What do people think? For a Sunday driver?

jyl · jyl's Garage

I mean one of these:

thrown_hammer · 07-08-2003, 09:07 AM

I have ALWAYS wanted a Pantera. I mean just listen to the name...Pantera...Pantera...Pantera. Makes you wanna kick people in the head, No?

masraum · 07-08-2003, 09:10 AM

You'd think it would be hard to go wrong in a small mid-engined car with a V-8

David McLaughlin · David McLaughlin's Garage

A coworker at my previous job restored a '72 Pantera. This thing was very cool and even lower than my 914. I would love to own one someday. I like the older models with the chrome bumpers. Like the long hood 911s, early cars are truer to the orininal concept. I also want a Lamborghini LP400 or 500 for the same reasons.

jstgermaine · jstgermaine's Garage

Oh yeah...!

sammyg2 · 07-08-2003, 09:26 AM

I've driven one. My old roommate has a real nice one and he threw me the keys once.
rough and loud I expected. The lack of headroom and foot room I didn't. No place at all to put your left foot except on the clutch pedal.
I loved the way it looked but was major disapointed at the way it felt.
Rattled big time, fit and finish was not as good as i expected, interior left the impression of cheap and not well engineered.
Handling was good but I didn't push the limites to see where they were. My stock SC stops better than the pantera did. The Pantera shifted better but the clutch felt terrible, extremely stiff but also vague when engaging.

He sold the car 4 years later (and 3000 miles) after he got tired of fighting an overheating problem and after he discovered major rust for the second time.
I'd love to have one as a trophy but not a driver.

A nice Pantera will cost at least $30k in So Cal, I could get a 993 or a real nice 930 for that price and actually enjoy driving it.

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

how about a Bricklin?

Crachian · 07-08-2003, 09:55 AM

I'm with Shawn. I've wanted a Pantera as long as I've wanted a 911. From my research, thirty grand will get you in the door, but I think a good rust-free pre-L (chrome bumpers) model will set you back around $40k. Like 911s, you likely will spend more than the acquisition delta between a fair car and a good car getting it that way. But geez, it's a Ford 351. Talk about cheap parts and easy repairs, at least with respect to the motor. It seems different than the 911 in that regard. Body parts, interior pieces, electrical components, exhaust, etc. are hard to find and/or expensive. So is the ZF transaxle, which (someone correct me if I'm wrong) is the same unit used on the GT40.

Recently, there was an interesting thread on the pantera international bbs comparing panteras to ferraris, with the pantera people bemoaning the fact that pantera values have been flat historically. A few people pointed out the ferrari aura, the pantera quality issues, but then it turned into a "but my pantera will spank any ferrari at a light" thread like many of them seem to on pantera boards.

Then there is the Mangusta, an example of which is in the Smithsonian. That's a cool car.

Also, Mr. DeTomaso recently died, so there is some renewed interest in the cars. And there is either an upcoming or very recent feature on the pantera in one of the car mags. It's a collector interest piece.

I have never owned or driven one, but sammyg2's observations don't surprise. But what was it like from 0 to 80 or so??

Jim Sims · 07-08-2003, 10:24 AM

I'm helping a friend restore (re-engineer) a Pantera. It's a nice shape that is not well executed in the details. There are electrical problems, transmission problems, rear drive axle/bearing problems, the well known cooling problems and extremely poor original brakes that must be upgraded to match the balance of the chassis and the engine power. There is a story about, that these cars were so undependable when new that the dealer in NYC was unable to find a mechanic willing to drive a car out for a photo shoot on Long Island. They were afraid they couldn't make it there and back. The Pantera is almost a kit car built by rummaging through various corporate parts bins. Unless one buys one of these cars already sorted out, plan on spending and lot of time and/or money getting it right. Jim

VincentVega · 07-08-2003, 10:28 AM

Wow, I never thought of a Pantera on the same playing field as a Porsche. No offense intended, but I always put them in the kit car group. Maybe I was wrong...

Dantilla · 07-08-2003, 10:40 AM

Hmmmm........

I've been thinking it's about time to replace my 200,000 mile pick-up. Pantera? Pick-up? Pantera? Sure would look cool in the Home Depot parking lot.

sammyg2 · 07-08-2003, 11:05 AM

The one I drove had plenty of power but it didn't pull as hard as my old 350 chebby 914.
I didn't want to abuse the pantera so I didn't drive it as hard as I could have, my roommate said something about frying the clutch if I wasn't careful and i couldn't afford to replace a clutch at the time so I was a little conservative.
I'd guess it was around 6 seconds 0 to 60, maybe a little faster.
Definitely high on the cool scale, just not what I would want to take on a 100 mile trip.
I've heard that the cooling issues can be solved using reverse flow cooling i.e. having the cooling water go in through the top of the engine heads, then through the block.

There's a local guy around here that has a cadillac northstar engine in a pantera, that might be a real nice combination.

RickM · RickM's Garage

I'm in agreement with Sammy's observations 100%. A pretty car but with many issues. The Mangusta is even less refined but I'd figure much more collectible.

07-08-2003, 11:55 AM

De Tomaso Pantera..... Well a good old friend of mine has a 1976 Pantera GTS with 400HP.

He offered me to drive it. I got in the drivers seat. Then I changed to the passenger seat. A Pantera is not built for tall Scandinavians with big feet! Wow that cabin is claustrophobic

I agree that there's no room for either head nor feet. However it's still a fantastic car. Absolutely brutal with wonderful noise. Very fast and with a potential for insane HP figures. On the other hand a Pantera is not very stable at high speeds, it's far from as well built as a Porsche and not that realiable either. It's a true italian exotic; brutal, good looking and fast, but also poorly built and not for normal sized people.

A few pics of my friend's:

07-08-2003, 12:08 PM

This one sounds pretty good:

Bill Bitner's Pantera #5171, powered by an awesome stroker Windsor engine with 425 cu . Click to listen to a fantastic 600kb mp3 sound file of Bill's Pantera engine running with open headers. The original sound level pressure was an ear splitting 120 db and was recorded using Crown PZM mics (ear protection had to be used for the recording session). The engine has Trick Flow R heads, Edlebrock Victor Jr. with 1" spacer. The engine puts out 535 HP @ 6200, 500 lb/ft at 4500 with a redline of 6800 RPM.

http://www.panteraplace.com/Pantera%20Pics/Bitner%20pantera_425.mp3

Gus Berges · 07-08-2003, 12:32 PM

When my father in law passed away 3 years ago, we sold his 74 Pantera GTS to Pantera International Motorsports. I considered getting the car for myself, but after the aforementioned mid $30K price (for a very good shape-performance) I concluded that it would not suit me as the footwell are very cramped and so is headroom. He never considered selling it and got more looks in that car than anything else (well, my M Coupe is pretty close...)

Panteras suffer from overheating, poor brakes, and liftoff at high speeds, all maladies which could easily be fixed. My biggest drawback was that I just could not comfortably fit (6 foot, 180lbs)

Here is a pic before it was shipped to California.

jhugh · 07-08-2003, 01:06 PM

My friend and I were on our way to get gear for abalone diving in his Saab 9-3. Definitely not in suave mode, okay? We're cruising up the 101 in Marin. From behind us comes this GLOSS BLACK PANTERA, man.. totally customized, low, shiny, with flares and wideassed tires and mean as hell. I'm expecting to see Lemmy from Motorhead driving this thing, right? Wrong. There were two gorgeous porned-out raven haired 30-som'n ladies piloting this badboy. I mean, the kind of women who don't work because they don't have to because they're so damned good looking. They were driving this thing through Marin and we followed them until they got of in Tiburon. I can only imagine where they were headed and the kind of stuff that went on there. Hell yes!! This is the lifestyle I want. Exotics rule.

Cheers,

jrdavid68 · 07-08-2003, 01:17 PM

Here is a 1973 listed at $30K:

You can view more details at Kassabian Motors' website:

http://www.californiaclassics.com/showroom.asp

Hetmann · 07-08-2003, 01:34 PM

I worked for a couple of years with a fellow who had a Pantera. He talked about it all the time. Said he had put over $65K into engine, suspension, etc. Well on day he finally finished it. We had our company picnic the following month at a local park. Beautiful sunny day. We all thought we'd finally get to see the Pantera! No dice, he couldn't drive it even to show it off to his friends and car enthusiasts. I never did see that car. He's probably polishing it with a diaper somewhere.