Looks like some real data is now being posted.

Steve W. provided a dyno run with a stock chip and just a
pre-muffler mod which yielded 193.4 HP. Don911 posted
dyno runs which averaged 186.4 HP for a stock 3.2.
Now what's needed are some dyno runs with the "chip",
with a before and after on the same day (same weather)
with only a chip change.

Also, one needs to put the "chip" on a gas analyzer and
make a couple of before and after runs to measure HC, CO,
and especially the NOX (the std smog test - 15 mph and 25
mph).

So, if the "chip" can pass the smog tests and produce
more HP, then it's a street chip. If not, then its a race
car chip, and then let it be compared to other track mods.

Note: It's not reliable to make assumptions about drive
train losses because the HP number before and after
mods are small, e.g. :

If the rear wheel HP is 200 and one assumes a 15% loss,
then the flywheel HP would be 235. If the losses are really
13% then the flywheel HP would be 230. The 5 Hp error/
difference distorts the real performance gain.

Therefore, the only real measure of performance gain is
to use one standard of measure, i.e. the rear wheel
dyno output HP.

Let's gain some real numbers!

Loren
'88 3.2

What are you hoping to accomplish here, Loren? :rolleyes:

Since my car will never be "chipped"...I'm going to defend Loren here, because I consider him to be a guy who also knows his stuff. I think he's trying to "accomplish" access to some hard and meaningful data..the same scrutiny we all gave the "cool collar" and Chuck's elephant lines...I see nothing mean or spiteful in that.

Our local PCA has a "Dyno Day" for charity every once in a while. I'll test the two chips on the next one if I can schedule it.

Paul, you're probably right...sorry. I think Loren's tone in response to targa911man's testamonial posting was totally negative. I would've hoped his response would have been: "Gee, that sounds great. Are there any compromises that we should be aware of? I'm still on the fence about these chips, can Steve post some data to help me decide if this is the right thing to do to my car? Thanks!" But alas, that's not what was offered. The last post looked like a feeble attempt to save face by mobilizing the PPBBS to do extensive testing so Loren could bless it for us. I'm probably reading too much into this. So Loren, sorry about busting your chops. And thanks to Dan for his post on a project he's happy about, and thanks to Steve for providing technical info for all to consider. And thanks to you Paul, for catching me in one of those moods! :D

Like others that own carreras i have read with great interest the various posts on installing a modded chip in their car. So far I have never seen a negative post on Steve W. chips. The same cannot be said for other easily bought chips such as autoauthority and weltmaster. I feel if upgrades to a basically stock car can be made and it enhances your driving enjoyment then that is a good thing.:) Btw I didn't realize that earlier models could be chipped without installing a later injection system. If I could have done that to my SC to get a little more power I sure would have done so:)

While it's nice having dyno runs and working back to flywheel HP with an assumed correction factor, it is dodgey at best. Someone really needs to to a back-to-back comparison with a couple runs averaged for confidence in the numbers.

Factory numbers are the result of a power reading at a steady RPM taken 1 minute after temperatures have stabilized. This is impossible to duplicate on an inertia (i.e. Dynojet) dyno.

While the dyno numbers will likely back up Steve's claims, don't overlook his 100% customer satisfaction Loren. Every post I've read his customers are completely satisfied with the improved driveability. How many other aftermarket suppliers can claim his sucees rate, at such a low dollar to high fun factor?

could a more aggressive chip be programmed if no emmission requirements need to be met and still be safe for the engine--for max performance? I'm ready for my 3.6 chip Steve!

How hard is it to swap out the chip? I know the DME unit is under the driver's seat, but do you need to take the seat out first? I would think a unit like that would be sealed pretty tightly; is it hard to get it opened up? Is the chip soldered in or in a socket? I think I want to go this route but I'm a little afraid of wrecking stuff...

I agree that assuming 15% loss is a guide to ESTIMATE flywheel HP. I'm sure there's +/-'s in there but it's good enough for my purposes. The only data points are at the rear wheels. Even those numbers don't really matter. In order to test the effect of mods, the only thing that really matters is the differences before and after....assuming the dyno runs are done back to back.
When I do the next dyno test with Steve's chip, I plan on doing the first run with the factory chip installed. I'll then install Steve's chip and do a run. Even doing back to back runs, there's a chance for errors. Performance goes up as the oil temp increase. Ideally, I'd do 3 runs with each chip and compare the 3rd run as it's usually the best.
However, 6 runs would be two dyno sessions and dyno time is not cheap. I'm going to try to make sure my motor is all warmed up before the first run.

My key point is that we all would really like to know as much as
possible before we put mods on our cars, especially when it can
possibly affect our engines negatively via mods to the DME unit.

Asking questions should not cause such hostilities and negative comments.
As long as we know up front about the pluses and minuses of the mod,
we're all better informed, e.g. if the chip puts the engine on the edge of
not passing smog. It would be better if we knew this before going for a
smog test and have to revert to the stock chip to pass smog.

Loren
'88 3.2

Hey guys, I am not programming my chips to please smog nazis or pass CARB. If that is your objective, go bark up a different tree. Motronics just happens to be a system that runs much better with an O2 sensor and with that in mind I program chips with three primary objectives in order of importance:

1) reliability
2) maximum performance, response and power
3) good fuel efficiency at cruise and light loads

Since meeting objective 3 really has no bearing on objective 2, we just as a side benefit happen to have a emission compliant exhaust because the afrs have not changed to affect the California 15 and 25 mph rolling dyno test because we are in a very light load region. Besides, the O2 sensor still functions to bring the mixture right at stiochiometric whether you are running a cat, or not, or SSIs. I have told guys prior to their smog test to just do the 10 minute swap back to their stock chip if they want to make sure, but I have had several California guys report that they have passed smog with my chip in. Do a search, some guys have posted so. Good enough for me and end of subject.

With respect to dyno testing, Don has results that show a difference of 8 rwhp before and after the the premuffler. It's done on the same dyno under similar conditions. That is the final result. Who cares about flywheel hp and transmission loss theory - why is it even an issue? Are we dyno racing? Don's car may pass emissions with my chip, but he doesn't live in California and he is using a premuffler (read, NO CAT and he doesn't care).

Those of you who analyzed Don's afr's with the cat on, may notice how it seems to run lean. Well, note that the exhaust was measured post cat and that will not give a proper indication of afrs because the cat is effectively reducing the amount of CO that the analyzer needs to measure properly. To be accurate, exhaust needs to be measured pre cat.

Are there doubts that the performance and character of the car changed for the better? Should we assume everyone who has provided their feedback here and on Rennlist to be imagining things. I'm not providing mufflers that sound louder ergo 'it must be faster'. I understand that everyone should be sceptical about everything, that is why I've told everyone that if it doesn't perform completely to their satisfaction, just return it, no questions, no risk.

tommyd, the box is easy to remove from under the drivers seat. You do not take the seat out, manual or motorized. Just a ratchet wrench with a long 10 mm socket. Those guys who are trying to contact me, just email me at stevekw@pacbell.net As the original intent was never for this to become a full time thing, I have no website or advertising, but I may eventually as many of the essential questions could be addressed in a faq. Thanks all.

Guys:
I was an early..or "somewhat early" user of Steve's chips and have been very satisfied with the one he burned for me to accommodate my mild mods. Good friend of mine was also convinced to buy one too and his car had SSI's and a 28 pin chip whereas mine had a premuffler and a 24 pin chip. Both cars are 85's ...and we're both very pleased with the results.
I had intended to dyno my car since the mods. As a baseline, my 85 had dyno'd before the chip at 200 rear wheel hp ( fairly stock 3.2..so these are good numbers)...before I added the Euro premuffler and Steve's chip. Here's where dyno number can be misleading. If it's an inertial dyno, the car is in 3rd or 4th gear and a rolling start at 3000 rpm is measured at full throttle until you go past 6000 or 6500 rpm. The increase in drum rotation speed with respect to time is a direct torque read out which then gets mathematically related to HP. This test says NOTHING about part throtle response which Steve's chip improves by a considerable amount.
So although i think I'd be getting 216 rear wheel hp or so...it really doesn't matter as it's at least as strong as before with a much fatter mid range torque and much better "tip-in" throttle response, either from idle or in mid range.
A home run......runs fairly cool at track conditions too, and I was worried about this. Richer running = cooler but more advance curve = hotter so I didn't know which one would win. Well, even here it runs no hotter than before for DE days at the Glen.

----Wil Ferch

Guys, Guys, Guys, get the chip already. You guys have probably paid for about 10 chips due to lost billable hours pontifficating this silly subject. Chips work. Put one in and let her rip.

Yea, Yea, chip shmip. I put a "Type R" sticker on the back of my '85 Euro and gained at least 25 RWHP!
D Hanson, I like your style!

I just spit my coffee all over the monitor! Thanks Ted.

Ted--

Do you have a dyno test to back up that claim?

Why so much scrutiny over such a small $$ mod?

Steve's chip was the best mod I ever made to my car.

It's not like you are dumping $500 on a mod that may or may not work. Ridiculous...dyno, no dyno, it's whatever works best for you and your car.

The seat does not need to be removed and if you don't have to solder in a socket the first time, takes all of about 10 minutes to change in or out.

Steve took the time to send me multiple chips (of which I still owe him) so that he could best match my mods with what he had to offer. The results are outstanding, I know my car and it has more HP. Not just seat of the pants. Steve was also the first to make me realize that mods need to happen as a complete system...chip, intake, by-pass, exhaust etc. Just doing one will not yield all of your potential gains and may actually decrease HP.

Maybe the 84's as the first year of Motronic are the ones that can take the most advantage of the chip mods.

My car never idled so smooth or pulled so hard in all gears. First gear has almost become useless with the added HP, it is simply too short and I can't shift fast enough into second to keep up with the revs.

You cannot go wrong with Steve's chip...as many others have said before.

-Jeff

Why the scrutiny...??
Dunno...maybe because if the advance timing and fuel delivery alterations were done by someone who *doesn't* know what they're doing ( not Steve's case, BTW)...then it might just lunch your motor !
--Wil Ferch