For an early 911 - How original??

[larry47us]

Just wanted to post a quick question and see where it goes. I am a very newbie, negotiating for my first Porsche. The shop that has it is going to restore it for me. It is a 73, 911E Targa in Viper (Emerald) Green. It is now red, and he is repainting it back to the original. It is a numbers matching car. I have confirmed that with PCA.

Now I am asking the questions, "How far do (should) I go in restoring it to its original equipment?" It has no radio, and wrong seats. It has had a bunch of mechanical upgrades, and these will be verified by my PPI. My price "fully assembled" is about Mid-Teens.

What are the feelings out there about an "original" radio versus a newer Porsche radio with a CD player? What about the seats? Should I pop for Sport Seats, which I have heard are the best choice, or go back to the low back leatherette seats that came with the car? And, since the original wheel is absolutely trash, what are your feelings on a new wheel? Original, Momo, or Nardi?

This is not a frame off restore, and I am really just going to have fun on weekends with the car. I also may show it a bit, but am not interested in going full concours. But if I am doing this, shouldn't I do it "all the way?" Or, at least as far as practical?

Aside from the general suggestion of "do what makes you happy," I am looking for some worthy comments from the experienced among you.

thanks for your input.

larry

[Jay Auskin]

If you're not interested in going full concours, then I don't see the point of getting too picky (IMHO). I personally are more for keeping a car "period correct", but that's about where it stops with me. If you're going to be into driving it, then mechanical "upgrades" are a plus. The Porsche market is pretty depressed right now, so just enjoy the car. You can always keep your eye out for deals on those parts that will make it more "original".

enjoy!

[cegerer]

I wouldn't worry much about originality in this case. I would, however, want to make sure it is 'period correct'. Early sport seats would be great, but expect to pay $2K or so. I don't think the 73 ever came with low-back (non-headrest) seats. You should be able to pick up a good set of standard 73-type seats for $500 or so. Radio? I don't know, I never turn mine on - the sport muffler sounds better! But maybe an original radio with a 'hidden' CD player in the glove box or somewhere would work??? -- Curt

[tangerine911e]

Its all about getting what you want out of the car. If you want a garage queen, by all means source OEM seats and other gear. If you want a fun car, go for what you like (I assume it is a keeper if you are going to thorw a heap of cash at it).

Overall cosmetically it would be good to keep the original feel of the car IMHO - I wouldn't go updating the bodywork or making any drastic changes. I agree with Jay - go for the period style where possible. You can source pretty good gear that will still retain the 'soul' of these great early cars.

Oh, and I'd change the seats. I found the original low backs absolutely terrible in every way - and they kept breaking! (could be something to do with my size though! )

Keep us up to date with the work on the car. There seems to be a resurgence in long hoods again!

[901/05]

and everyone else is right also. period correct is the way to make the car unique to suit your desires and stand out from the original cars that you will almost never see (other than large p car gatherings)

I have nothing against original garage queens. They are the high priced jems that I hope to own one day. But stay only within the boundries of the period of your car. There are lots of options for you.

So, no 12 disc CD changers (you can install a single disc DC player in your glove box) and no hacking up the interior for suround sound. Update the seat belts tho...Wheels too.

He He..here is a formerly totaly original 67 with period correct 69 fuchs...



Just another excuse to post my baby, Shawn.

[Scott Clarke]

I've dealt with many of the same issues with my '70E. I agree with the preceding comments concerning period correctness. Your steering wheel can be recovered. Alternatively buy a Momo Prototipo. It is the legit choice for an early car. I bought a set of original sport seats, as I found the non-sport seats to be like sitting on a living room sofa. The sport seats are very, very suportive, and look great. I paid $1800 plus shipping two years ago. Our early cars are getting old. Soon they will be thought about the way we think about 356s.
-Scott

[901/05]

If i could find the materials and afford it, my light ivory car's interior would look just like Curt's.

Dude, your car rocks...for a non coupe thingy.

Shawn.

[Randy Webb]

How far?

Well, It's an E, so I would go farther than a T but maybe not as far as an S. Here's what I mean: I wnated to hotrod an early car, but passed on buying an S I was looking at as I just didn't feel right in putting a 3.2L engine in it and doing some other things. But the T is a low end car, and more common so that bothers me not at all. The E is a better all around driver than the S (or so they say) but less rare, so I would put it in the middle maybe. Why not go part way, see how you feel, and make the next decisions next year? Lather, rinse repeat until:
1. you are satisfied,
2. your wife stops you
3. your wallet is not just empty, but part of a black hole to another universe
4. you are involuntraily committed.

[JCR]

I ripped out the PO installed Alpine CD player 2 days after I got my car. Couldn't stand how it looked, really out of place. I have a very nice (but incorrect) '70 Becker Europa until I find the right Blau Frankfurt. Don't turn it on though, only sometimes for the news.

Gone out of my way and paid a king's ransom for New Old Stock bumper and rocker trim pieces. I figure I'd better get them now while they're somewhat obtainable. There is a quality difference.

On the non original side, I took out my excellent steering wheel and door panels, stashed them snugly in a closet - and installed a Prototipo and RS door panels. Why? - Because I like the way they look and function - I'll let them take the wear too.

I think it's important to keep a period correct look. I strongly believe the factory got it RIGHT and any mods other than for track racing detract from the integrity of the early car. But, some RS factory goodies are OK by me on an S/E/T as long as they're reversible.

[RSBob]

You could always keep the original stuff for safe keeping, or another buyer down the road, and upgrade brakes, suspension, motor, seats etc, as long as you don't modify the sheet metal. In that way you modify your car to your tastes, and later return it to stock if you needed to. When you get the car to a pretty good modified state (if humanly possible) then you can pour your cash into restoring the orginal stuff. Guaranteed to keep you broke for years to come, but never boring.

[Aussie]

I love the early steering wheels and seats. I find it a bit of a turn off when everything is modified however thats just a personal opinion.

Simon

[Alan.UK]

As you say Larry maybe you should do what ever makes you most happy. All the parts your after can be easily found, bar the sport seats and even those still pop up for sale. I have a couple of pairs and I l love them, but they really have gone up in value recently.

Maybe you can make these decisions slowly, you don't have to do it all at once, which is where I go wrong sometimes. Maybe get the car enjoy it and replace the parts when you want to. If you change any original parts just keep them safe incase you want to put them back. 69-73 Door pockets are a great example of this. Many people removed these, lost them, dumped them for RS panels or cut holes in the front ones for speakers...today a good set of these things are getting very expensive.

Good luck

Alan.UK

[barlowdo]

Bolt on parts can be removed , stored , and put back on at time of sale. That is what I did with my 68 912. In addition I see one of the parts catalog houses is now selling modern style radios that fit in the small snout slot of the early cars. But.. I don't think they give you "Short Wave".

-Don

[larry47us]

Thanks for all of your advice. I am planning right now on staying pretty standard in my choices. The car is numbers matching, so I am taking it back to Viper Green, and there have been many mechanical upgrades.

The shop has a set of sport seats that he will let go for $1800 repaired, and it looks like I am heading in that direction. I will update you guys with pictures when I get this finalized.

larry

[limble]

Don't bother with covering the original steering wheel. I have sport streering wheels in both of my cars and much more fun to drive than the truck sized stock. However, you will not be able to view you gauges as well. You have to guess when you're going a 100+ but you can always read your tach.
Keep everything you remove.

[Jump2xs]

Larry, your asking some good questions, and this long winded reply isn't going to help, but here's a paradox you may encounter as I have many times. It goes like this:
You do your research and soul searching about what you want to do with the car, you fantasize and plan, you daydream and plot. Then you get the car.
This is when the reality of ownership takes over, usually in a positive way if you did your homework.

After a few weeks or months you will begin to REALLY get to know the car and that's where the departure from your plan may take, this is because you will learn the cars strengths and weak points

Every P-car I've owned has surprised me by getting me to change my use plan after I get to know it.

Some I bought to put on the mantle and were so much fun to drive they came down off the shelf, others were bought to drive but ended up more more parked and pampered.

My latest collection goes like this:

57 speedster, bought to drive and upgrade mechanicals: reality is, it's too original and straight to molest, but I do drive it often, 60 hp and all, 137k miles--owned 2 years

65 Coupe, bought to restore, pamper and show, reality is it's way too fun to drive to remove from service for 2 years or more and I like it as is, patina and all, 115k miles--owned 8 years

73.5 Targa, bought to drive, reality is, it's too original and nice to bang around in....45k original miles, original paint, dash, perfect interior. Only owned 1 month so I'm still on the honeymoon, so this could change.

96 Carrera 4, bought new to commute in, reality is that I want more comfort for the commute, so this 993 is strictly a touring toy, 30k miles--owned 7 years.

[Jack Olsen]

If you think you'd enjoy 'going all the way' with a restoration, then buy a numbers-matching S non-sunroof coupe, not an E Targa. It'll cost the same amount to restore either of these models, but the S will be a valueable collectible for years to come, while the Targa will simply leak.

Targa-bashing aside, I'd say take a look at a lot of similar-era cars (R Gruppe, Early S Registry events), and decide where your particular buttons get pushed. I remember driving with a guy who had a lovingly-restored numbers-matching T, right down to the original 4-speed transaxle. Driving with a bunch of hot-rodded cars, he was constantly falling behind and not having a whole lot of fun. If he were at a concours event, he might have been the belle of the ball, but -- unfortunately -- the guy really liked driving his car. Right from the beginning, he'd emphasized the restoration so mutch that now he spent most of his time trying to avoid th inevitable stone chips.

He wasn't a happy guy.

So my two cents worth of advice is the same generic wisdom you anticipated in your question: find what makes you happy, and go for that.

[Jim Richards]

then buy a numbers-matching S non-sunroof coupe

My opinion - having a sunroof is a plus if the car is primarily driven on the street . Otherwise, I agree totally with Jack's suggestion. 911E coupes are also nice (and more rare than 911S's in 72-73); however, the S is always going to be more desireable for collectors.

[john_colasante]

There is one red flag I noticed here. It appears you are buying a car from a shop that is going to restore it as part of the deal, so you won't actually take ownership right away. To me, this is problematic if the shop puts your "project" on the back-burner as soon as the initial excitment (and initial cash flow) has subsided.

[larry47us]

Jack: Your bias against Targas is showing!!

Maybe I should give you a bit of personal background. I fell in love with the Porsche Targa when I was in college. But, I was not in a position to afford the $9K at that time. I can afford the $14K more easily now. The dream was actually Tangerine, but the Viper Green is certainly acceptable!!

I am not looking for a Garage Queen, I want a car that I can take out on sunny days, and turn some heads, enjoy driving with the wind in my hair (what's left of it), and relive a portion of my youth (the curse of being a baby boomer). I also want a car that isn't going to sink me annually to keep it running. I expect to put maybe 3,000 - 4,000 miles a year on it.

This car is a numbers matching car with many mechanical upgrades, and the shop is going to do a full paint it up from the metal paint job in the original color.

I heard from the BBS cronies that for my purposes, city fun, I would probably be better off with an E than an S. Not only the cost/fun ratio, but the lower end torque of the E.

I had called the shop to do a PPI on a car that I was interested in, and it fell through, but the shop had this car that they were just getting ready to start building up, and we cut a deal. I am still waiting for some engine tests, and a final PPI, and then we are on our way.

Jim: Funny, I thought that a Targa was a coupe with a sunroof!!!

John: I recognize your concern. Here is what we are doing. When we finalize the deal, I will make a down payment, and the shop will transfer title to me. I am using my bank as an escrow agent. He sees a clear title, and he sends the check. I plan on making some reasonable monthly payments to help his cashflow. But I am not planning on giving him more than about 60% of the total price till the car is finished.

When the final inspection is done, I will come out to collect the car, and make the final payment. The shop has agreed to this, and I am in the process of drafting an agreement. The same guy that is doing the PPI will do interim inspections of the work in process, and will do a final pre-delivery inspection. I feel confident that I have this covered. Is there something that you see that I am missing?

thanks for all of your input.

larry