Minimalsit Boxster...

[lateapex911]

The Porsche Miata thread got me thinking....how many of us (admittedly a less than scientific sample!) would actually buy a Porsche Miata?

For the purposes of this poll, we will base the car on the Boxster, but it will be stripped. No power anything. No carpet, no console, special thin top, and it will feature a new stubbier, lighter front end. Suspension will be stiff, with great brakes, but not crazy Brembos. All up weight will hover around 2000 lbs.

I was going to include air cooled 911 engine options, but as I think it has become impossible for Porsche to import any air-cooled engine due to tight emission standards, and the difficulty in acheiving temperature stability in the air cooled format. So, lets use the current Boxster engine, with as much cam as they dare and a "throaty" muffler. (again, as loud as regs permit). Lets say they can eeeek out another 25 Hp.

here we go......(hope this works, my first poll!)

A Boxster is to the 2000's what gold chains and pinky rings were to the 70's. No offence.

(except for the Boxster guys on this board, of course)

[jkeyzer]

I think that's called a 914... And I'd buy one. I did.

[exc911ence]

Make it Miata sized (and priced, perhaps with a $5K "premium" for the badge on the nose) and put a 4 cylinder version of the Boxster 6 behind the cockpit and I'm in. CASH WAITING!

[racea911]

You know, there is already a car coming to the US market that fits this description. It is the Lotus Elise. Before everyone starts whining about Lotus reliability issues, this car will have a rev happy, 190hp TOYOTA 4-cylinder motor and a TOYOTA 6-speed transmission. We all know how reliable Porsche's are, but I don't think any of us are going to knock Toyota's reliability

The car will be mid-engine, weigh less than 2000 lbs and rev to, I believe, 8300 rpm.

[TRE Cup]

But won't the exclusive low production elise cost $50k?
No doubt they handle and go like nobody's biz, but they won't be in Miata $$ territory

[silverc4s]

If Porsche built the car you describe above, they would undoubtedly call is a "Boxster RS" and sell it for $15K MORE than the base car...;-(

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by silverc4s
If Porsche built the car you describe above, they would undoubtedly call is a "Boxster RS" and sell it for $15K MORE than the base car...;-(

Ahhhh, yes, I mentioned that in the other thread. But I have the 50K option in the poll that addresses (sort of) that concept. So far, it doesn't look like a lot of us will spring for the "Boxster RS".

With Porsche, less is always more!

(The Elise's impending importment also got me thinking...how many will they sell? Is there enough of that pie to sell a few Porsche models? Would Porsche be interested in producing such a car?? I know the answer to the last one, unfortunately.....)

[JSDSKI]

With a Lotus - it's more like "how many will be running by the end of the year". Notwithstanding the Toyota powertrain (a good reliable thing no doubt), remember all the other Lotus's also had engines, trans, and various parts from other reliable and semi reliable manufacturers. Ford and Renault, for example, and the damn things still fell to bits and pieces over time. Their culture is kit cars - they buy stuff from bigger suppliers and "kit" it together on amazing chassis/susp/packages.

Lotus just never had the patience or R&D funds to develop a 911 kind of car.... they've always spent the money on the next idea and racing car. "Not that there's anything wrong with that."

It's a lot of fun while it's falling apart - but unless they have completely changed their culture - they will never really compete with Porsche as a dead reliable 5-10-20-30 year sports car. For that matter, who does?

There's a reason Porsche overengineers parts (while we b***h about the costs and the weight) and a reason the technical guru's on this board almost always end up recommending factory stuff (see the recent posts on MFI fuel filters, etc). It is performance with reliability and there is no cheap, smart, trick, genius design way to get that - just hard work and R&D. It's the real reason we still drive these cars every day when they're 15-30 years old and still have performance in hand. It's the reason Porsche won so many races against arguably superior technical solutions....

[s_wilwerding]

You can pretty much have a Boxster RS now. The big trick would be to buy an early Boxster for around $20K, strip off all the top mechanism, replace the seats, get rid of some of the other stuff you don't need, and drop in a 996 engine. That would be a very fast, somewhat lighweight car for around $30K. I've always wondered how much weight the top mechanism adds - I'd have to guess at least 100 pounds. And replacing the electric seats with manual seats would probably save quite a bit more. Someone should try it

[silverc4s]

AND you could have a removable hardtop at home to use when needed! I could warm up to this idea... how about a 3.6 Varioram instead of the wasserboxer??? Teach it to sit in the middle, and away we go!!!

[greenmonster]

Now that the early used boxsters are priced in the low 20's, it's only a matter of time before some people start using 'em as "project cars".

[ruf-porsche]

Originally posted by racea911
Before everyone starts whining about Lotus reliability issues, this car will have a rev happy, 190hp TOYOTA 4-cylinder motor and a TOYOTA 6-speed transmission. We all know how reliable Porsche's

Unless people have actual experiences with either LOTUS reliability or PORSCHE reliablity I think a lot of people are just bad mouthing the other Marque because they think their Marque is the best.

As owner of several LOTUS and having own several PORSCHE I can say that the reliability issue of both is about the same.

The only time my LOTUS broke on me was when I was autocrossing them. Racing put more stress on the car than everyday driving. But being that the LOTUS is a minimalist car there are not a whole lot of other system such as A/C, power steering, power brake, climate control to fail.

My PORSCHE never broke on me while autocrossing but the maintenance issue of oil leaks, and from what I have read on this bulletin board of other owners with pull head stud, broken head studs, worn valve guides, exploding rubber clutch, hard start with the CIS fuel system, inadequate A/C system, etc. make me think that my car may be the exception rather than the rule.

I was at Road America the other day for the Vintage Event (saw cstreit's car and watch him race) and they had several Lotus Espirit and one Elsie on display. I spoke with one of the sale representative from Fox Valley Motor about the Elise. He said that it would be forsale in 2004 for under $40,000 so that mean it will be price at $39999.99. The Elise they had on display did not have the toyota engine, but the current rover engine. A/C will probably be standard for the USA market, and it will have the Toyota 190 bhp variable cam engine with a six speed transmission.

Looking at the interior it looked very minimalist, no leather interior, no cup holders, no navigation display, no power connector for cellphone or laptops

Looks like I'm geting a new toy next year.

[ruf-porsche]

Originally posted by JSDSKI

Lotus just never had the patience or R&D funds to develop a 911 kind of car.... they've always spent the money on the next idea and racing car. "Not that there's anything wrong with that."

If you know anything about LOTUS you would know that they make more money as consultant (R&D work) for other car manufacturer than they do selling cars.

R&D for active suspension was used on LOTUS F1 cars before the regular car manufacturer considered using the concept in production cars. The old adage Racing improve the Bred.

[jester911]

I saw the new lotus elise at this years car show. I really liked what I saw. They said the price was a little over 20k . I think you will see more of this car as time goes by.

As for the boxter, I just haven't come around to liking it. Some cars have to grow on you to be attractive but it hasn't happened here.

The front end is taken off of the 996 (which I am not really crazy about anyway) and the back end looks bulbous and weird. Then they tried to be retro with the tail pipe in the middle and for me it doesn't work.

The only version of the boxter I have seen that looked good was in a magazine and a tuner in europe redid the car. I think they called it the stola gt. Now that thing looked good.

[silverc4s]

So Ruf,
I hate to call Bull***** on a member of this board, but you are just not being honest about your Lotii, maybe not even to yourself, but certainly not to us.
I HAVE owned a Europa, and it was less than 5 years old at the time. I can honestly say that it was a BLAST to drive, but it had the build quality of a 50's era fiberglass boat with an outboard motor.. There was NO attention to detail, NO consideration to longevity, it was all lightness, the MINIMUM that could be glued together and registered as an automobile..A total POS, that would fall apart while parked in the garage.
All Lotii of the early era were track vehicles, with lights and other boits stuck on to meet on-road requirements, nothing more.
Lotus Cars has earned it's position in the market, as has Porsche...nuff said!

[JSDSKI]

Actually, Ruf, you make my point - that they are better at creating than developing. R&D for a F1 car is limited to proof of concept and lasting for a two hour sprint. I know Lotus makes money creating and developing concepts for other manufacturers (as does Porsche) and I was not knocking that. That's their goal and motivation. The suspension and noise suppression systems they created for GM are ingenious but were probably refined by GM for actual production use.

I actually admire Lotus as a company and design firm. I wish they were still in F1. But their idea of engineering and production refinement is lacking. My (limited) experience with the cars (early Elite and Europa) was closer to Bill's than yours, that's all. Still, I wish I had the funds and time to restore/build a Super Seven - but, I'd consider it closer to a motorcycle than a daily driver.

[ruf-porsche]

Originally posted by silverc4s
I can honestly say that it was a BLAST to drive, but it had the build quality of a 50's era fiberglass boat with an outboard motor.. There was NO attention to detail, NO consideration to longevity, it was all lightness, the MINIMUM that could be glued together and registered as an automobile..A total POS, that would fall apart while parked in the garage.
All Lotii of the early era were track vehicles, with lights and other boits stuck on to meet on-road requirements, nothing more.
Lotus Cars has earned it's position in the market, as has Porsche...nuff said!

Perhaps having a minimalist vehicles is not what you really wanted.

Did your Lotus really fall apart from sitting in the garage? My two Lotus are 33 years old and they never broke down or any part fell off the car while just sitting in the garage. Who bull*****ting who on this board?

Attention to detail? What kind of attention to detail did Porsche do to design an instrument pod for the 911 that the speedometer is obscure from the driver sight line? And they kept that design until the 996.

Don't BUY the LOTUS because you will only drive up the price for the enthusiasts that really wants a fun minimalist car. The Miata,Honda CRX, Porsche Boxster, and dare I say Pontiac Fiero prices were all driven up because of supply and demand.

[silverc4s]

Actually, the inside RV mirror fell off the windshield while parked in the garage one night....

The ignition switch fell apart on the floorboard one night as I was attempting to leave a resturant - admittedlt not in the garage though..keep in mind this was a 1971 car in 1976, NOT a 30 year old example...;-(

[ruf-porsche]

silverc4s

So the rear view mirror fell off the car and the ignition switch which was not produce by LOTUS but Lucas fell apart and that is why we are saying that LOTUS are POS?

I think there are many members on this board would rather replace the ignition switch on a LOTUS vintage 1971 than the turnsignal/headlight switch on their 911 that got fried because the engineers at PORSCHE decided not to add a relay to the lighting system.

FYI the mirror that fell off the LOTUS was also manufactur from the same company that provided mirrors for PORSCHE.