Porsche Miata

[Superman]

Most of us have had questions about Porsche's evolving market strategies. The cars seem to be getting bigger, heavier, more luxurious and that's not made us fall in love with the Marquis decades ago. And now we have the Cayenne.

I remember when the Mazda Miata first came out. I thought "now that's a cute car," and "the motoring public is going to eat this one up." Sure enough, Miatas were hard to get for a couple of years.

Now I wonder "what if Porsche had beaten Mazda to the punch?" I mean, the darned thing arguably looks best in silver anyway. Reminds me of the James Dean car, at least compared to most cars today which suffer from a form of elephantitis.

What if Porsche made a small engine that could make great power and still survive racing environments, and placed it in a "roadster" type of shell? Like a 200hp (normally aspirated) in a 2600 lb car, with an available "S" version or "T" version making upwards of 300 hp. If the Boxster is their stab at this goal, they missed. But if they had hit this mark, would they not be in a position to bask in their reputation some more?

[Bill Douglas]

Yup, something light, minimal and fast.

[lateapex911]

Why do you think they missed with the Boxster?? (I like the car, but was very disappointed when it hit the showroom floor...the show car really rocked.)

While it misses the Miata price point, it has a lot more content, and arguably, performance.
It's handling has been lauded, as has the Miatas. Granted, it isn't a bare bones roadster, but I doubt that the market that Porsche caters too would buy it in adequate numbers. I do see a market, albeit a small one, for a Boxster light weight. They have to be careful, a light fast hot engined roadster could take the wind out of the more expensive 911, and they are loath to do that!

If they do produce a LW Boxster, I am sure they will do as they always do...charge more!

[CrossT]

IMHO, they need something akin to the difference in price/capability to the prior 911/914 mix. The Boxter is much closer to the 911 vs. the 914 to the 911. Small, real light, simple, minimal. I really like that idea

todd
86 cpe

[Superman]

Boxster is a very neutral-handling car, no doubt. And I confess I have my hands full trying to keep up with them at autocross. And while I do not want to offend my Boxster-loving friends here or elsewhere, the darned thing is a brick. My car, at full GVWR, weighs less than the Boxster's empty, dry weight I think. Side by side, the Miata makes the Boxster look like a Lincoln Continental.

But yeah, now that I think about it, the Porsche Miata would be best if its engine were just in front of the rear axle. It would be the new Giant Killer.

[obrut]

I keep waiting for Porsche to build something like a Lotus Elise/Exige

Still waiting.

I may have to make do with my long planned minimalist early speedster....

[stinkpot]

Lotus is bringing the Elise to the US next year - 190 bhp, 1800 lbs. Totally minimalist. They're gonna sell like mad - to the same enthusiasts who would buy a minimalist Porsche. This is a niche Porsche should be playing in.

[nostatic]

why is the price differential so different from the old days? A well optioned 911 is about 1.5x or 2x what a Boxster costs. That would seem to be pretty close to the differential in the 70's.

[Reg]

Funny to see this topic. I was just (slightly) considering selling the 911 & MR2 and buying a left over 2002 Sunburst Yellow Miata that is brand new at the local dealer. While I love the 911, it is not nearly as practical and I am finding myself with less and less time for it.

I agree with the point of the Boxster being expensive. Only now could I afford to buy a '97 model year that would have 50k on it and I bet it would still be more expensive than this new Miata... and lets not even think about service. Too bad they could'nt have built and sold a car that was only slightly more expensive than what an avg. Joe like me could afford.

Porsche has missed this important boat, and went on to build another. Hopefully they weather the storm.

[lateapex911]

I dunno....if the car is minimalist, would you pay the same for it?? If not, I don't see how they would make the numbers work. Are there really THAT many people out there willing to pay $42K say, for a porsche Miata??

I have always wondered why car companies can't make cool lightweight cars like that, but it seems that the market doesn't exist in great enough quantity to get the price that low. I guess the cost of bringing a model to maket has gotten so great that manufacturers have to sell good numbers to make it worth the exercise.

[CarreraS2]

$42K is getting near base Boxster money, and, no, no one is going to pay that for a minimalist Porsche Miata.

But at $33,000 (priced like an S2000) Porsche wouldn't be able to crank them out fast enough.

I see Loti Elises driving around my office in Newport Beach/Irvine quite often. Must be a mfr's or distributor's office nearby. Very neat little car.

But why should a company like Porsche build lightweight, agile, fun to drive SPORTS cars to compete with S2000, Lotus Elises, etc. when it can build overweight, overwrought and homely station wagons instead??

[masraum]

Porsche has always been an expensive sports car. Even the 912, 914, and 924 were expensive compared to the other "economy" sports cars that were their competition. I don't think they've ever catered to the average Joe with a car that was terribly low cost initially. That has always been the domain of toyota, mazda, etc... What we consider the lowest entry level porsche now is what the boxster will be in years to come.

Part of what sells Porsche is it's status/image which is somewhat different today than it was in '65 or even '75. If they built a miata competitor they would loose that image.

The boxster is competition for the S2000. And it wins.

While I share the desire for a new car that conforms to the small, light, fast mold and is cheap because it is minimalist all with the quality and name Porsche, I don't see it as a possibility.

Part of the Porsche name is the image. If they make a car too cheap it'll have to lack on one of the previous characteristics and it'll change the image that Porsche has as a somewhat exclusive marque. Yes, the miata weighed 2200 lbs, and has gone up to more than 2300 lbs, but it's far from fast, when you make it fast (they have turbo and supercharger kits galore) you loose reliability because all kinds of things start breaking. Not to mention the bodies are pretty flimsy since they sell several braces, strut tower brace for the front, similar brace for the back, another brace that goes under the car in the rear and subframe braces for front to back, not to mention roll-bars. If Porsche made a miata like car it would not be miata cheap. I don't know what the current miata costs new, but you can bet that if they are $20K that by the time Porsche got done improving upon the chassis rigidity(already lacking in the current miata and even more necessary when the output is bumped up), adding more power, and then adjusting to make the cars reliable it would then be closer to $30K. Of course, we've also added a ton of weight to the car, or we've bumped the price up even more because we are using more advanced materials or methods. By the time you get done you have the Boxster. You may be thinking, "just add the power, the chassis will be fine," but if you bought a new Porsche wouldn't you expect it to meet a level of build and design that the miata probably does not meet. At that point either lots of people would buy them anyway, but the name would go to crap or no one would buy them.

Unfortunately the folks like us are a minority, so the cars that cater to us are also in the minority, but that makes them that much more special.

[CarreraS2]

Originally posted by masraum

Part of the Porsche name is the image. If they make a car too cheap it'll have to lack on one of the previous characteristics and it'll change the image that Porsche has . . .

Newsflash!

Porsche now makes a 5,500 lb station wagon. Including a version with a VW Golf engine that can barely break 10 seconds to 60.

How's that for image?

[masraum]

Newsflash!

Porsche, today, has the image of exclusivity, excellence of engineering, and is considered a top of the line marque which includes comfort. Porsche is known for fast sports cars too, but not cars like the RS lightweight or the 550 or the 908. We know them for these things, but we are an exclusive group and have far different ideas than the general public.

The turbo Cayenne is faster in a straight line than my 911 and has a higher top speed while the non turbo would still give most cars and some other Porsches a good run or beat them, both are extremely impressive considering the things size and weight. It's also extraordinarily good at what it does. Isn't that what Porsche stands for. When they make a sports car it is good at what it does. When they decided to build an SUV they made it good at what an SUV does and also managed to infuse a lot of the sports car spirit. The thing handles very well according to the reports, is fast, and doesn't feel as heavy as it should.

Is Porsche actually making the 6 cylinder version of the Cayenne? I haven't heard anything about that since it was all just rumor. I haven't heard anything except the V-8 S and the turbo V-8.

[masraum]

In the old days that we all adore manufacturers could make a car that could be driven from the showroom to the races (races, not DE's and autocrosses, but real races) and they could be competitive and win. That is the time or characteristic that we all would like to be able to experience again. Unfortunately it's just not the case. The Porsche race cars of today are still pretty close all things considered. They aren't making a group 5 or group C car, but the GT3 car that we see in ALMS is the modern interpretation of the old RS lightweight. You can still buy porsches today that far out perform the old despite the extra weight, and I believe there are several mandatory trade-offs that require the extra weight, probably the most notable being safety.

[dd74]

Porsche, according to another thread, might be building a car to compete with the 3-series. A very good idea. Makes me want to buy stock in the company.

The Miata is a fantastic automobile. It's not that fast, but it handles in a class all on its own. And the shifter - oooo-la-la...

[GSpreeman]

For my taste the newer 911's have lost their distinctive styling. It's hard to tell that it's not made in Asia. On the same note, the Miata never had styling.

[Bobboloo]

They have missed an important market segment. The $25k to $35k sport coupe. The Euro car maker that is gobbling up that segment is BMW with the Mini Cooper. If you think you see alot of them popping up here you should go to Europe. They're all over the place.

[CarreraS2]

I guess the thing I don't get is why so many people say that Porsche can't build a $30-$40K SPORTS car without diluting the brand, causing a loss of "image," etc.

Yet, most of these same people will defend the Cayenne because "Porsche needs to build it to stay independent" (BTW I've never seen anything to support that claim - that the most profitable car mfr in the world NEEDED to build an SUV to stay independent - I can see an argument for expanding the line to try to avoid what happened in the early '90s, but expanding the line doesn't necessarily mean an SUV), and because while a Porsche SUV/station wagon may be goofy, a bad idea and outside of Porsche's focus, it's ok because "it is as fast as a 911" or "it's a good SUV," or such other qualified "compliments" (like "well, it is pretty fast and handles pretty good, for a grossly overweight pig").

Any of those arguments can easily be applied to a cool, lightweight, 30-40K sports car. In fact, any argument that can be made for the Cayenne (esp. in light of the VW Golf engined version that IS coming) can equally (actually better) apply to such a sportscar.

It's fun to banter about it, but history will be the judge. 10 years from now it should be very clear whether it was a good or bad decision.

[Paul Franssen]

We all want something different, really... but I see lotsa people on THIS board would like (I hesitate to use the word "want"!) a minimalist new Porsche to exist. We can all agree that Porsche, these days, does NOT make any such car. Lotus does, but then it's made with a plastic bodywork and, even though the Elise is said to be the most reliable Lotus ever built, it's still too close to the "kit car" image to my mind. But I admit that every time I see an Elise, I look at it, and I know they are fast on quite limited BHP: Lotus is LOTUS - a complete concept, all right. Back to Porsche. Back in the fifties, Germany -as a proud nation (they used to think they were "superior") - had a lot of work to do to climb back up the hill. The Germans worked hard, life was tough, and the likes of BMW built small bubble cars, then the little "700", slowly gaining increasing momentum...and bulk. Porsche hit the racing world with a total "underdog" image: endurance racing against "huge" Jaguars, powerful Maserati/Ferrari cars etc. Porsche did damn well, to the degree that at the mid and end of the sixties, Porsche's (underdog) 904 grew to 906...the 908 was a super car and after that, the 917 was equally "big" and as powerful as the Ford GT40/Ferrari 512 cars. German industry grew in the same manner: by the 1970's, Germany was a big and powerful industrial nation. The frugal hard-working life of the fifties has, by the 1980's, transformed itself into an overfed "old" German population, with -in general- conservative tastes: "fat" Mercedes, BMW coupes (please note I write this from a "European" perspective!. Even VW has gotten onto the big power bandwagon... Porsche? Well, they still make sports cars, but they also are full of chloresterol. Airco, power this, power that, more weight, more power... Gone are the qualities of "nimbleness" The same, BTW, is true of the German industry: the country has "fallen asleep", Germans nowadays are more worried about labour benefits than about being sharply honed competitive on the world market! I consider Porsche, today, of being totally incapable of building a "slim" pure-edge car, name me one German car that has those qualities! (The BMW 2-seater sports cars are retro blah...very beautiful retro, in the case of the Z8, but retro. Retro, neo - you name it: bygone glory. Sharp edge design, lean, searing....yes, I'm afraid Lotus is closer to that standard than any other marque. So, cherish your old 911's !!!