Buying a car that's very far away?

[Wayne 962]

Hi folks, I've heard all the stories about people who have bought cars that are very far away. I don't recommend it - for obvious reasons.

However, it may be that I may have to buy one that is far away, as I can't find one locally (pre-1980 Ferrari 308) that fits my bill.

Do you guys have any suggestions or tricks that you have learned from dealing with people far and away? I've of course shipped cars to people sight unseen, but I can't imagine buying a car without looking at it first. The photos hide so many flaws in the paint, and how do you know if the engine is any good either? Have most of you had the car pre-inspected at a shop nearby to the car? How do you know that shop is any good? Fly out there and inspect it myself (I don't have much time).

Here are two I'm looking at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6212&item=2440575087

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6212&item=2438796230

-Wayne

[Mike Feinstein]

Wayne,

There's a wealth of automotive genius on this board. I'm sure you will get numerous responses from people willing to have a look at cars on your behalf. From there, get a good PPI and if all checks out, get on a plane to close the deal (in my opinion, this is not optional). Take the opportunity to examine the car one last time prior to turning over your money and drive it, or ship it home.

This is how I bought my car and it worked out great.

[clnilsen]

Wayne:

Ferrari??? You've spent years makeing Porsche ownership easier for the masses, and now you decided to tackle the Italians?

Well, good luck to you. The only advice i have on the 308's from when I (breifly) looked at them was to ABSOLUTELY get the engine checked first. Two owners that I talked to that are good freinds both said that these care are not user friendly from a maintinence standpoint, and get expensive quick. Particularly belts, tho I can't remember which at this point due to access issues.

Service records are an absoulte must, as well. Especially when considering a long distance vehicle, this can give you an idea of what was done and also the quality of work (dealers, etc)

The Recommended service intervals are CRITICAL to be done as well, and are very expensive.

Good luck, but be careful. Again, this is all from my research; I wimped out after doing some investigation due to all the chances of going wrong.

The reason I ran from the Ferarri was that everyone told me that in the age you are looking at, the chances of getting a lemon skyrocket.

I'll be curious to see where you end up.

Good luck!

Chuck

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I've bought 2 cars in the Bay Area and drove them back to Boston but am fortunate to always be there on business, so it's always been personal inspection. The one time I bought a car sight unseen (the 71), I got very burned! There is no substitute for personal inspection, "very little rust, nothing to worry about" is usually "needs new longitudinals"; one person's "9" paint is another's "7" and "the Webers just need to be tuned, I haven't had time to do it" is well... expensive.

There is only 1 thng I've learned. If you don't know them, such as an Ebay transaction, you should realistically never trust them. Ebay is where people sell their problems. If they are part of a board/community like this, you can almost always trust them. I've run into some fantastic people on this board completing about 100 excellent transactions in the last 2 years, only 2 were bad and one was just annoying.


Could you buy an 87 Carrera on Ebay with another member here checking it out? Probably yes. But what's important here is that you are looking at a Ferrari. Having a friend who is really into these cars, I know that even a thorough PPI can burn you. Just ask him about his $97,000 Dino that needed $20K of motor work. And is a $300 to $500 plane ticket, $1000 total max outlay, too much when purchasing a $30,000 Italian exotic?


Advice: buy a car from a Ferrari forum, from people who are dedicated to their cars and the community around them.

Just my $.02.

[larry47us]

Wayne:

I feel funny trying to give you advice. I did just that, bought a car sight unseen from someone.

Someone referred me to him to do a PPI on a car I was interested in. He was going to, but found a post on Pelican from someone else who had done a PPI on the car. It was a mess, even though the pix looked good. In further talk, he had a car that I wanted, 73E Targa, that he was getting ready to restore.

I know someone whose best friend bought a car from this same guy, and my friend said that his work is fantastic. I checked the CofA to confirm matching numbers, had him send me close up shots of problem areas, did a leakdown and compression test, asked in detail what he was going to do to restore it, and we cut a deal.

My friend did a PPI on the car before I paid anything for it. Said that he was comfortable with the condition and what I was paying, and what he was going to do. He will do a final pre-delivery inspection, too. I have the title now, and am going to only pay 50% of the final cost prior to picking it up. Final payment to be made on final inspection.

I guess that the key is your comfort level with the person doing the inspection. He is your eyes and ears. Get a name of someone from another source, not your seller. Talk extensively to the person who is going to do the PPI, and make sure that they know cars as well as you do, and that they are particularly knowledgable about this particular model Ferrari.

Hope some of what I said helps.

larry

[Embs]

The bottom line is this, you either have to inspect it yourself or send a confidant to inspect it who's overall judgement you respect as much as your own.

Unknown shops, and unknown third parties can never be fully trusted. You never know where "connections" may exist, especially on high dollar items.

If I can't see it, feel it, hear it, I don't even consider it.

Once bitten, twice shy.

[Zeke]

I bought my '71 sight unseen from this BBS, but from a one time poster. Another board member, Rlane, inspected it for me for which I am eternally grateful. If you did the same with a Ferrari board member, it might work out. No substitute for seeing it yourself.

With so many 308's in SoCal, I wouldn't go far to buy a car myself. And the timing belts on a 308 are a problem. I know where there is one now that the belt broke shortly after being replaced. The owner had spent $40,000 on the car in the last year, so this certainly wasn't expected. It's parked and will probably never run again. What's worse, is it's part of a probate and can't be sold.

[B.Lane]

Wayne, i too feel strange giving you, of all people, any advice but i can tell you buying a car from a distance is scary. I could write a book about my 911sc purchase out of Florida ( I would name it 101 reasons not to buy a porsche from a Cuban in Florida). Bottom line: The guy said it is perfect. He said every thing works and PROMISED me i would not be dissapointed. i talked on and off with him for 5 days. Got pics, etc. I asked him to take the car to a porsche dealer for me to have it looked at and i would give the dealer my credit car to pay for the inspection. He at first hesitated and said "OK" then i didnt hear from him for several days. He called me back and said it had been done. Not a dealer but some local mechanic. i called them and they kept saying it was a nice car and for $10,000 for an 82sc i was getting a deal. I was excited, dumb, and clouded with the idea i was finally going to have my 911 so....i bought it. Ended up needing trani rebuild, engine rebuild, paint, basically a full resto. It's done now and is a great car....$15k later plus the $10k for the original. You will hear stories like this all the time. My advice? Pick 2 you like and that fit your budget. Buy a plane ticket to #1 choice. Fly there. Make your decision. An average plane ticket is $300. Buy it on Priceline a couple of days prior and you will still pay $300 or less this is less than the price of a tire. I could have bought 80 plane tickets for what i have in this SC.
Option #2. Talk to seller. Ask him to take it to a DEALER, not some shlep mechanic he could pay $50 to tell you what you want to hear. Do the credit card thing to pay for the inspection regardless of cost. If the seller won't do this then he is lazy (I.E. probaly doesn't care for the car right to begin with) or is hiding something. Talk to the independet inspector over the phone yourself and pick his brain hard. Option #3: Tell seller, after looking at pics, receipt copies and brain picking, and tell him "if you are confident that this car is 100% of what you say it is, then i will photo copy a cashiers check made out to you, and have the bank verify it's real." (Showing a cashier check made to seller SHOWS HIM YOU REALLY HAVE THE $$ and are serious. If the seller is full of S%^t then you can get your $$ back out of the cashiers check or have it made out to another seller) Then tell him you will send him a fax of the stub and copy of the check, Tell the seller to buy your plane ticket. "If it everything is as i expect i will pay you for the CAR AND PLANE TICKET, if it's not, you bought me a round trip and i go home." Serious sellers with good cars have nothing to hide and therefor nothing to fear. One of these 3 options shouldn't be a problem for someone with a good car. GOOD LUCK!! I always wanted a 308...there is one in Denver with 31,000 miles, MINT (i have seen it, not even a rock chip but might be sold by now Call Ferrari of Denver) for $29k.

[pwd72s]

Gee, it worked out for Evren...

[techweenie]

I've bought cars via the Internet from Connecticut, from Tennessee and from the very upper right corner of California.

My experiences have generally been good.

I did *not* buy the C2S I won on eBay a year ago last September, because the local PPI uncovered paint work I was not expecting on a 'pristine' 22K mile car. The dealer was genuinely surprised, embarrassed, and unwound the deal.

Generally, I buy much cheaper cars than that, $5 - 10K, so I expect to fiddle with them a bit. The Northern California car was in amazing structural condition, but the Webers were incredibly out of adjustment and there was minor body damage -- very visible in the photos. I fixed the Webers and sold it to another PelicanHead.

I couldn't get the Connecticut car transported out here, so i sold it without ever seeing it. The buyer was thrilled.

The Tennessee car was less wonderful. It wasn't running ("for the past coupe of weeks") and I bid it accordingly. I missed the aftermarket glass sunroof Bubba had put in the top (-$$$$). The engine was made to run after a lot of work, but it made fatal noises (-$$$$). Fortunately, I had a nice 3.0 handy. And the rest of the car is very nice. So I will come out okay.

The lot I work with to consign cars just bought an '89 Carrera Cab from Illinois, sight unseen for $11K. To my amazement, the car arrived, needing less than $1K in reconditioning. So there are bargains to be had out there in this economy.

PPI is generally necessary on cars you're paying near-market prices for. I usually select my own shop -- so that the shop is not thinking about risking losing business from a potential local customer. I use my contacts or the internet to find somebody local who will go look at the car, even before the PPI.

(I should add that I've had PPIs done that both found nonexistant problems and overlooked obvious ones.)

Above all, I hold to the philosophy that you're buying the seller, as well as the car. It helps that I've been around the Porsche aftermarket for 30 years and know a lot of reputations. So there are certain people I choose not to buy from, no matter how good the deal appears to be. That's where using the Internet and belonging to newsgroups really pays off.

Specifically to Wayne's Ferrari question: the best advice aside from the PPI is to nose around the Ferrari newsgroups. You may have conflicting interests with other group participants on buying a nice car, but it's especially useful to help flag the really bad cars and bad sellers.

[JCR]

Using an escrow service may be a good option . Make sure seller agrees BEFORE you agree to purchase.

Run from an Fcar without service records - no exceptions if less than 25 - 30 yrs old.

If I'm going to see car first hand and puchase - I'll bring about 80% as cashier's check and the rest in cash. Keeps some negotiating leverage for those little surprises!

I bought my S unseen (had to). I checked seller's reputation and found a good PPI shop through people in the area. Worked out fine... several things uncovered in the PPI, renegotiated price - and fortunately no surprises when it arrived.

[TRE Cup]

Wayne, we've done several services and repairs on 308's and I am not impressed.
I am not talking from the standpoint of being a Porsche shop. I love all cars and have owned 2 Daytonas and a Dino. There is no denying the nice looks of a 308, but they are slow, you have the "eyetalian" driving position, stiff clutch, they are slow, very labor intensive major services, very pricey parts, some dumb engineering (eg-remove the oil pan, oil pick up tube before you can remove the front cover- which you have to do all too often to replace inferior bearings), and did I mention they were slow?

Having said all the above, I still like them as cars that should be driven no more than 4-5k per year. That way the expenses of ownership can be spread out over long periods of time. Also, resale won't suffer so much from having a "high mileage" 40k mile car (True- Ferraristi consider that high mileage here in the states!)
Make sure you get all the original books, records, jack, and tool kit- that stuff is gold to the Ferrari world
Best of luck

[B.Lane]

Hey Wayne...just thought i would check out Ferrari parts. Cheapest engine i could find used was $18,000. New lutches were $800 for everything, water pumps were around $450...and that didnt include the gasket , $5.50. You better be carefull....looks like Ferrai is pretty proud of their stuff....makes Porsche look cheap.

[Wayne 962]

I'm just looking for something different right now - something to hang onto for 2 years or so and then trade in for something else.

Sounds like what I suspected - most long distance deals turn into a can of worms. I guess I'll keep my search to the local area and be patient...



-Wayne

[cegerer]

Can '101 Projects for your 308' be far behind ........

[jester911]

I think it may need to be 1001 projects to cover the 308

[howiee]

Hi Wayne

I live up in Canada and couldn't find one locally in the shape I wanted.
I found one in Cinncinaty and after talking with the owner and seeing some pics I called around and found a dealer to do the PPI. I paid over the phone and had him fax me all the details. I delt directly with the service manager and he knew exacly what I wanted from him.
I did not let the seller get involved in this. If something comes out shortly after purchase it is easier to go after a dealership than a single person. You paid them to give you a thumbs up or down on the car, and paid them to go over it with a fine tooth comb. Get everything on paper that the dealer is saying is wrong and even good with the car. (fax or email you ).
Also be ready to fly in and walk away from the deal, if after all this the car is not as stated enjoy your weekend and fly home.

Apart from that, find your new baby and show us some pics......

Howie

[swbsam]

[john walker's workshop]

and you were complaining about how unfriendly BMWs are to work on.

[tmctguer]

i would fly out to personally inspect the car. you might see something in person that would make you drop the deal. you can get pretty decent web-fares these days, and it would be better to drop $500 on a plane ride up front than WISH you had seen the car before buying it.

prior to flying out to the area, i would learn who the ferrari dealers are in the area. at a minimum, i would find out who the local ferrari garages are. i would pre-arrange with the owner and the garage to schedule the PPI. if the car passes your visual inspection, i ask the owner to drive the 2 of you to the garage and be present during the PPI.

if you need help finding out who may be a reliable source of ferrari mechanical advice in the area, email me (tmctguer@cox.net). i have a contact in the ferrari business who might be able to give me (you) some garages who would do a PPI.

i almost bought an early model porsche 911S in the bay area. it had been modified into a race car which is what i thought i wanted at the time. i called a local P-car garage to see if they would do a PPI. it turned out that just by coincidence, it was the garage that frequently worked on the car. so i learned tons by just talking to the garage owner. this information coupled with my visual inspection (it was a decent car), made me realize that i really wanted a stock car that i could race occasionally. i also realized that the engine was too powerful to run on regular gas. so i passed on the car, and kept looking. eventually i found my '73 911E which i have been very happy with.