The definitive EFI/total engine control thread!
 

I think we need this and a couple of other posts have shown some interest so here we go.

I would like to hear from all of the EFI geeks out there. I know there are a few and hopefully more. Specifically I would like to hear what systems people prefer, and why. How much did they have invested by the time it was done both in funds and time? Would they do it again? Once it was completed and tuned was it trouble/hassle free?

People like me who are considering it as an option, what has your research taught you. I have narrowed mine down to a few options

Accel DFI V7- This is a system I like. It has just about everything you would want, it has Windows based software. The down side is I believe you need to run a separtate ignition box to fire the coil packs.

DTA- This is a system out of England I believe. Again, seems to have it all including datalogging. The downside to this is it's hard to find a ton of info on it.

Holley commander 950 - This is another sytem that has it all and is digustingly cheap for the ECU at $560. It also has datalogging but also requires a separate ignition box to fire the coil packs.

Some of these systems come with the peripherals, meaning sensors, harness, blah blah blah. Some do not but I don't see that as a big issue as all of these use readily available sensors and a harness would not be that bad to make.

So, edumacate me. I want total engine control, meaning no distributor, etc.. Crank fire, twin plug, electronic boost control, etc... So, who's coming with me?

Must...resist...urge...to buy...Carrera intake!

I...like...CIS....like...CIS.

It's hard to stop tinkering, and I am looking forward to reading all about this stuff, Len.

What is the benefit of a "total-control" system with coil-on-plug, beyond getting rid of the distributor? I have recently become fascinated by the MegaSquirt system because you have to build it yourself. But it only controls fuel, not ignition.

So how much of a drawback is this in reality, if your average Crane or MSD box can retard spark using a MAP sensor?

Colin, I agree you can use supplemental systems to control timing. This would be a personal choice. I like the idea of having the laptop right there showing me what is happening during the tuning and tweaking phase. A crank trigger/ hall effect setup is not that expensive and is definitely cheaper than a twin plug dizzy setup. Oh yea, CIS is the devil! You know it, I know it, they know it:) Just kidding, ....no wait, I'm not kidding at all!

Here are a couple more units I have come across. There are certainly a lot of options, and I am not clear at all which is the best way to go.
http://www.fjoracing.com/products/PACK_341B_SPECS.HTM
http://www.034efi.com/034ECUSTGII.html

There is a group of us getting ready to modify our 930's....and we have spent the past 4+ months investigating all of the various sytems out there. DTA, Haltech, Motec, Electromotive(etc)
In the end I think that we have agreed to bite the bullet and go for the new Motec M600. I can't tell you how many e-mails that I have archived on this subject...but it's months worth of going back and forth, agonizing over the best decision, only to arrive back at the Motec doorstep. Let me see if I can stir up the waters and get the other players involved in this discussion. I would hate to see you go through the same exercise without the benefit of this research. Let me know if you are interested in seeing the specifics ...I may have to pm these to you .
Rick
'78 930

I have decided to go with the DTA system. For me it is a cost effective system that is close to the Motec. The reason total engine control is better than CIS is that you can tailor the ign. and fuel to get a more efficient and better running motor. I am estimating the cost to be $4k with me doing all the work and not including the intercooler

Rick,
Any idea what the M600 is going to cost?

With the majority of sensors and goodies (minus harness), probably 4K +/-. The new M600 has some really nice features. I can be more specific after the order is firmed up.
Rick
'78 930

Hey Dean, what happened to your Blown ID?

Dean,

At 4k I assume you are going with the $1k wideband O2 sensor option?

Rick,

What is the main reason you are going with the VERY pricey MoTec? I am guessing you have a few race oriented guys in the group buy. I have not researched MoTec too much as sticker shock is scary but I don't see which option they offer would push me that way. I know they have some very cool yet somewhat unnecesary options IMO.

ACCEL DFI
 

I see that the ACCEL/DFI folks sell a 911 "Dual sync distributor" that allows true sequential EFI operation without a cam sync signal....just need your original distributor gear to make it work. This is the first non OEM distributor for a 911 I've come across. Very interesting...

Well i am going to be the outsider here. I have limited experience with a motec and decent experience with the tec 2. I like the tec simply for ease of use. I helped my father instal it in his 951. First start up was very easy, we were able to use the regular map that came with the tec 2 and some fuel pressure regulator adjustments. After that our tuner in San Diego sent us a much better map, then it was just a little tweeking here and there to smooth it out. In my opinion, it's extremely easy to use in comparison to the motec. But on the other hand any racer you ask, they'll tell you that if your really serious than the motec is the only choice. But like len, i don't see why.

What, no Linux?

I am running the Accel Gen 7 on a small block V8. I know it is a V8...but the basics of fuel injection are the same.

I run the wide band o2 sensor and it has been able to tame an otherwise wicked cam that did not make enough vacuum to idle decent. The windows based sofware is easy to use. The computer also controls my electric fans and shift light, all adjustable with the laptop.

The system is very flexible. You can start out normally aspirated, and by just changing the map sensor and the parameters in the computer, you are ready to control a boosted car (turbo/supercharger) You may also need to upgrade to larger fuel injectors, but the heart of the system remains the same.

I would highly recommend a system that allows you to control timing also, such as Accel, Electromotive, Motec etc. for any engine combination and always in power adder combination susch a turbo. The ignitiopn retard will save the engine.

Stay away from the Holley. I was very unhappy with the Commander 950 system I had before.

Not an easy answer, and I am not one to throw my money around. At the horsepower threshold and dual turbo setup that I was looking for, there were shortcomings with the DTA and the TECIII that were not acceptable(marginally) to me or several of the others in the group buy. The M600 has the ability to fire six "low impedance" injectors (fully sequentially) without an ignition expander as with the earlier Motec units. Yes you can modify the DTA, perhaps the TECIII to fire the big low impedance injectors (effectively) ...but in the end the aggravation factor was not worth the marginal savings. I say marginally loosely, since the engine management is in total a small percentage of the overall project budget. So why skimp on something so critical?
Truth be told though...I would probably be going with the DTA if it were not for the group Motec buy. Go to the Motec website and see what the new unit is capable of......many nice features that can be enabled as needed in the future.
Rick
'78 930

Re: ACCEL DFI
 

Very interesting indeed. Got a link?

Tom

I saw the dizzy in their PDF catalog that you have to download to see:
http://www.mrgasket.com/ftp/calmap/DFI%202004%20Catalog.pdf

.....Also in their parts list:
http://www.mrgasket.com/ftp/calmap/DFI%20Parts%20List.pdf

Colin,
That was my original log on name a few years ago. And I felt like going back to it when I change my e-mail.
The wide band O2 sensor option does not cost $1k. You just buy the sensor.

Wait, i'm not sure if i follow rick, your saying that the tec can't fire large injectors. Our tec 2 is firing 83lbs injectors.

Don't know about the "TECII"... this was a big concern with the DTA, and I thought there were similar issues with the " TECIII" depending upon the firing mode. I think you can ultimately fire big injectors with both...you just have to modify the signal. I have enough things to be aggravated with, and want to start with an ECU that clearly supports this feature. This was a big topic of discussion within the group, especially with the electrical engineering contingent. When we investigated this topic, I recall that this was primarily a concern for those of us that were looking for big horsepower numbers(500+hp). Let me dig up my notes before I stick my foot in mouth, I will post my findings tomorrow.
Rick
'78 930

All in all, in looking at aftermarket EFI systems to replace our aging CIS systems, they all seem to be pricey.

I truly don't know a universal answer at the moment. Getting 12-15 mpg with carbs isn't cutting it either.

It would seem to me that some sort of universal unit would cost about the same as some good carbs. I'm looking at MSD, accel and those type of units that can be found on cheaper american iron.

Good luck,
David Duffield

David,
If you've got more time than money there's megasquirt, it's basicly the Linux of EFI. I know at least one person's running it on a 911.

Megasquirt is interesting for the total DIYer but only does fuel right now - no ignition...yet.

I've been pouring over the manuals for the various systems and I noted something about Alpha-N control: (If you're interested in running a fairly wild cammed NA motor with a poor idle vacuum signal you probably want some type of Alpha-N available)

Accel DFI - Has Alpha-N but it's all or nothing - You either completely use throttle position to control fuel or you use MAP.

Electromotive TEC 3 - Has what they call TPS/MAP blend - allows you to program the amount of Alpha-N control you want throughout the RPM range - pretty nifty.

Not sure yet about the others as these 2 systems are the ones I'm leaning toward.

Anyone here use the Accel DFI system yet?

I just reread your post rick, i realized you said fully sequential and your right on that one, i don't know about the 3 but the tec2 runs semi sequential. BTW, 83 lbs injectors on a 6 is supposed to handle 750-900hp range (On our four we were told 500-600). So those looking for big horsepower still wouldn't be a problem.

If you'd like another testimonial, my mechanic is fed-up with Electromotive right now. My rally car has a TEC-II and he's done a couple of TEC-III installations recently. Apparently Electromotive is having some financial difficulties and are way under-resourced in terms of bug-fixes and support. According to him, WinTEC and the TEC-III have a lot of issues that Electromotive is unable or unwilling to resolve.

Anyway, he's hot on Autronic now, and says it can do a bunch of stuff that the TEC can't for less money. He characterized it as a "poor man's Motec" and said it's incredibly capable and easy to tune.

Though I'm not sure how important ECU-managed anti-lag is to Porsche owners. ;)

Hey, ALS has street-cred! ;) ("bling-bling" , y'know ;) )

There's something pretty surreal about making a dead stable 8psi at idle. Talk about a launch!

Oh...don't forget the noise!

http://hem.passagen.se/emilfrom/VR6TT-2.WMV

Where does one find info on autronic?

Where is the thread for the Motec Group buy? Is it on this board or another?

Great thread, keep it up. I'm seriously considering EFI on my 3.4 after messing with the PMOs for 6 months.

How about the Canadian company with their SDS system or the guys down in OZ with the Microtech system?

I don't need data logging or high boost or huge injectors. I have used the SDS system on a 2-liter Honda Vtech motor and it is pretty simple to program.

TT

www.autronic.com

The SMC and SM2 are the standalone systems. Pricing is around $1500 for the SMC, depending on options and whether you go through authorized distribution channels.

Man, bet that car annoys the hell out of his neighbors. :)

The SDS site has an interesting perspective on sequential EFI, a topic I knew absolutely nothing about until it was mentioned earlier.

http://www.sdsefi.com/techseq.htm

Size of injecors have nothing to do with their impedance....83 and 45 injectors use same coils and take same amount of electrical energy to open and shut.