Lola T70 vs. Porsche 917K

Doug Zielke · 12-18-2003, 06:34 AM

As I shifted a few cars around my "Museum", I could not help but notice the basic similarities between the two cars.....

BTW....when I had my back turned, Alain DeCadenet drove off with the 917. I hope he brings her back in one piece.

Superman · 12-18-2003, 07:45 AM

Like Yogi says, "If you can't emulate someone, don't try to copy them."

Doug Zielke · 12-18-2003, 08:13 AM

Sup'....hard to say who 'emulated' whom.
Both cars emerged around the same time.

jluetjen · jluetjen's Garage

Huh??? Actually the Lola predates the K. Sure, they're both Sports Car from the same era. Solar Productions even used a T70 as a standin for a 917 in a crash scene in Le Mans. BTW, they did the same for a 512S crash too. But they don't look any more similar to me then they do to a 512S or M, or any of the other sports cars of that era like a GT40 Mk7.

Wil Ferch · 12-18-2003, 01:11 PM

It's not so much a question of emulation as it is what the common design trends were along that time line.

Don't forget, even if the 917 did come later compared to the T70, the 917 was part of the 906-910-908-917 lineage that started in 1965/66 with the 906,.....all with pretty much the same body shape.

--Wil Ferch

Bill Verburg · Bill Verburg's Garage

form follows function(usually)

greglepore · 06:51 AM

Body shape for sure. Oddly enough, the Lola is monocoque, whtile the 917 is spaceframe, arguably a less "modern" technique.

Have an open Donohue/Sunoco T70 and an AutoArt Martini staring at me now from my office credenza. Spent last eve detailing the Martini with some paint and wire... sweet...

masraum · 12-18-2003, 04:20 PM

And don't forget that the side scoops on the T70 look very much like the scoops on the 906.

To me the T-70 and 917 are up there at the top right next to the GT40

oldE · 12-18-2003, 04:33 PM

To me the first difference which sticks out is the placement of the driver: very far forward in the case of the 917, I suppose to deal with the length of the flat 12. Also the prominent side scoops break up the (otherwise) flowing sides of the Lola. Personally, to my eye, the Ferrari 512S (?) to be closer to the Lola than the 917K.
I love 'em both!
Les

Doug E · 12-18-2003, 05:20 PM

Didn't they use the T70 as the mock-up car for a bunch of scene's in LeMans? I seem to remember reading somewhere that they rebodied them and used those T70's because they were cheaper and available.

HawgRyder · HawgRyder's Garage

I would bet that any wind tunnel testing that was done probably came up with the same answers for both cars.
Engineering usually takes the same road to the solution of the problem.
It is only when someone comes up with a radically new idea (at the time) that we take notice.
Personally I prefer the Ford GT40 and it's later brothers...but then again I ride a rigid chopper...so my brains are somewhat "bounced" ..LOL
Bob

Paul Franssen · Paul Franssen's Garage

HawgRyder, in fact the original/first version of the 917 was a product of extensive wind-tunnel testing. It was a pure and aerodynamic shape. During 1969, all who drove the car were scared to death, so unstable was the car. It think it was Rolf Stommelen who hit 360 kph on the Le Mans straight, wavering over the entire width of the road... Nobody dared really drive the car.
Only when John Wyer came into the picture, did his team start doing the necessary modifications to render the car (much) more stable ... and LESS aerodynamic. They cut off a piece of sheet (fiberglass?) and crudely stuck it around a bodywork, and immediately the car's handling was greatly improved, and in the end this became the 917-K (K from "Kurzheck" = "Short tail").
This was not wind-tunnel work: cut and paste, right on the test track. Just to say that the "perfect" car does not come straight out of the wind tunnel.

BTW, last year at Spa I saw the then-time Ferrari 512 car (which was Ferrari's -failed- answer to the 917), and yes, it is amazing to see the exterior similarities in "looks". I think "style" is very often a "period" thing. The 911 is, however, unique !

cegerer · cegerer's Garage

The T-70 was designed by Eric Broadley around 1964/65 - he was on the original design team of the Ford GT-40 but quit due to his disdain for 'design by committee". The GT-40 had 'lift' problems at speed and the shape of the rear bodywork on the Lola was his attempt to provide some downforce. It worked and was one of the first cars to be designed to employ downforce thru aerodynamic drag of the body shape.

Prior to his work on the Ford GT-40, Broadley designed the Ford-powered Lola GT - one of the most beautiful racing cars ever, IMO. It was also pretty much a milestone in racing car design - i.e. monocoque chassis, mid-engine, etc. Talk about design similarites! Look at the Lola GT and see if they used any of it in the GT-40:

cegerer · cegerer's Garage

Mark sP · 12-19-2003, 03:37 AM

I was under the impression that Ford approached Lola to construct the GT40? Therefore developing the idea from the car above, into the 40. Hence the similarities> Am I wrong?

Great photos btw.

Paul Franssen · Paul Franssen's Garage

Mark sP Think you got that right...

911nut · 911nut's Garage

According to a book I have here on the GT 40 Ford hired Brodley to design the GT-40 only but Ford built the first few batches themselves in England as Lola couldn't handle such a big project. Later Alan Mann Racing built some Mk III's (one resides here in the Detroit area) and the Mk IV's were built in Dearborn.

By the way, the Penske T-70 was a race winner until it and it's transporter were stolen from a hotel parking lot. The team did some detective work but they were only able to recover pieces as the car was completely stripped.

Doug Zielke · 12-19-2003, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 911nut
By the way, the Penske T-70 was a race winner until it and it's transporter were stolen from a hotel parking lot. The team did some detective work but they were only able to recover pieces as the car was completely stripped.

I'd like to read more about this. Any references?

Wil Ferch · 12-19-2003, 06:45 AM

The 917 mods were done by John Wyer's team at end-of-year testing in Austria...and the "panel" was a big hunk of plywood....I have a book with a very rare photo of the action as it happened.

Yes... the Lola GT of 1963 (?) was the progenitor of the Ford GT-40, the desoign basis was clearly Eric Broadley's. Notice the very similar front door hinge area ( actually...somewhat like a 911 with a forward-angled top edge !), and the windshield. Of all the info I have on the GT-40's , it is not entirely clear who actually penned the original GT-40 shape. Strong hints are that Dearborn styling group of Ford used the Lola GT as basis and went from there. I don't think the classical GT-40 shape was the result of either Broadley/Lola....nor Ford England.

--Wil Ferch

greglepore · 06:53 AM

The Penske/Lola story is in Donohue's book "The Unfair Advantage"-which is my favorite racer bio/auto by far. My copy is lent out at the moment, but I'd be happy to forward it to you on return if you pass along your mail info by email.

Not to hijack the thread, but while we're on the Penske/Donohue subject, I'm looking for a 1/24 512M kit (I scored a set of Penske decals). Anyone know of a source other than the $250 resin ones that show up on ebay?