Porsche Ceramic Brakes-Why doesn't Gordon Murray know they exist?

[tshih]

I was reading the British mag Evo and it seems Gordon Murray was interviewed about possible challengers to his crown of having built the world's fastest car (MaClaren F1-240 mph top speed) ie by the Bugatti Veyron (1000 HP 250 mph future estimate supercar). He said that people should not obsess about one aspect like the top speed or best 0-60, 0-100, quartermile time/speed. He says he's not worried about someone else building a car which will be better than his F1 because the only area for massive spending in R&D of future better cars would be improvement on brakes that are as good as the carbon fiber ones used in F1 cars which presently has a finite lifetime once the critical temperature (about 700 degrees) has been exceeded. He is working with Mercedes on developing their SLR and evidently doesn't know of the 3 year old Porsche Ceramic composite brakes (which are offered for street use on the GT2) and will be standard for the upcoming Carrera GT.

Why are the world's leading automobile magazine's editors also in denial that the Porsches are leaders in braking technology as well as engine and other vital automobile components?

Porsche need to boasts more to these writers to get the glory of their hard work. Road and Track guide to supercars don't mention the use of these brakes in the Enzo (which doesn't have them!), or F1, or any other cars including the GT2.

[RallyJon]

What Gordon Murray understands better than anyone else (including Porsche) is that 1000HP, steamroller tires and unobtanium brakes make no difference if you need a 3000lb+ car with power everything and computerized traction, stability, and sphincter control to actually drive the thing.

The F1 was an icon and a brilliant milestone in ways that other car companies can't begin to fathom.

[tshih]

Gee,
I thought he was being politically correct to his new boss at Mercedes by saying that Ferrari and Porsche still haven't developed any car which is better than his F1 for sale to the wealthy public (those in the market for $500000+ cars). I have to agree that so far the F1 must remain the quintessential pure sports car (with manual eveything and normally aspirated V12) weighing a nice 2400 lbs.

The GT1 at $1 million a pop also was a pretty awesome contender but it's really a race car than a street car. I think the new Carrera GT in 2004 will be a nicer and better car but not as fast but will have superior brakes.

[Bill Verburg]

Mercedes has the same brakes as porsche PCCB. Mercedes version is not crossdrilled is the main difference.

[tshih]

Bill,

Are you certain Mercedes has the same technology? Those are not crossdrilled rotors since the holes were formed before the hardening process which leaves a carborundum hardness of surface for extreme (i.e. lifetime of car) wear resistance. Those PCCB rotors are the cutting edge of technology 3 years ago and I'm sure Porsche is selling that to others only after perfecting their use in-house. Unless I'm not aware of secret technology transfer (for which Porsche gets large royalty) Mercedes and Ferrari have not been able to come up with their own versions and none of their cars feature it yet. The only car currently using those rotors are the ultra-exclusive GT2 and maybe GT3 racers. That's due to the slow low production volumes of these rotors which are difficult to make consistently. A very small subcontractor was used by Porsche in the development of these rotors. In March 2001 at the Zone 1 PCA Tech Tactics, a Porsche engineer brought a cut up example for show and award to the winner of the tech quiz and it was passed around. It was light and hard with the advantage over the F1 carbon fiber rotors which literally will burn up after one race and constant coefficient of friction at all temperatures!

Tom

[Bill Verburg]

Here's an article from Wards

Brembo also has an offering which is being used by Ferrari.

[tshih]

Bill,
The article talked about Mercedes being able to offer their ceramic brakes in their upcoming limited production AMG (55 cars?). Porsche already offered some GT2's with their PCCB system and are promising to use them as standard fitment on the regular 911 turbos in the future as production vamps up. This to me means Porsche is the first and Mercedes is just trying to steal the thunder. I'd be surprised that Mercedes will get the patent rights if Porsche fights them in court.
Brembo is the provider of the calipers which are not as high tech (except for more smaller pistons) and doesn't really matter in terms of producing that component for all the major performance players.

I've never been impressed with Mercedes technology as they are the GM/Chrysler mentality of running the automotive business and are too big for innovation. They were Great in the early 1950's but have rested too long upon their laurels. The Japanese and Porsche have way surpassed them in racing and development of quality and reliable cars.

Tom

[cegerer]

So anybody want to guess the first use of carbon brake rotors?? Hint: it was around 1971!

[Jim Garfield]

Concorde?

[Oldporsche]

Yep, them ceramic brakes are a real technical "break through". I believe that they were an option on the '61 vette. As a matter of fact, sintered Iron metallic ones were available also. (They were all drum brakes however.)

Some of these guys are breathing their own gas.

David Duffield

[Randy Webb]

917?

re: MB - I hear their ceramic brakes have major quality control problems -- maybe not anymore.

When I drove a GT-2 (slowly, I might add) the the things sqealed like crazy. Also, don't ever bust a rotor -- each one costs about as much as a Dodge Neon. I hear some are taking the ceramic rotors off and putting Fe back on until they sell the car... It's a great technology tho -- I just hope PAG quickly irons out the problems and cost issues (no pun intended).

[cegerer]

Yup. Concorde!

http://www.frictioncenter.com/Pages/rArea1.php

[motion]

You guys are frickin amazing.

[Bill Verburg]

None of the ceramic brake packages are working out well for track use. That includes the Porsche PCCB. They are failing after even limited track usage and Porsche apparantly will not stand behind them more than once.

[cegerer]

"You guys are frickin amazing."

What's amazing is that there actually is a "Center for Advanced Friction Studies"!!

[tshih]

Why doesn't the standard 2 year warranty on all OEM Porsche parts apply to PCCB? Are the rotors being destroyed during track use from the people not replacing the pads when they wear down to the ceramic backings? Are the rotors which has a Mohr hardness of 9.25 (silicon carbide) being scratched by the ceramic or metal backing like iron rotors can be gouged by the metal pad backings when the kevlar friction material is worn off? I don't understand the failure physically based on material hardness and toughness considerations. For those with experience of failure what exactly happened to the rotors? Are they cracked or scored or broken like a ceramic plate would if dropped or hit with a hard object?

[Bill Verburg]

Are the rotors being destroyed during track use from the people not replacing the pads when they wear down to the ceramic backings?

Yes, track use, even w/ the correct factory recommended track pads is causing the rotors to deteriorate. Warranty is being denied (usually after the first claim) due to the nature of the use(non highway). Can you imagine that? You've coughed up ~9k for a set of state of the art racing brakes, that can't be used on the track

In my mind this is a major black eye for Porsche, right up there w/ the limited towing capacity of the Tuaregs after the initial ad campain showing one hooked up to a rather large Airstream trailer.

[Randy Webb]

Todd Serota (a DE instructor, Rennlist poster, and GT-2 owner) told me he thinks that most owners are not treating them correctly -- I dunno if that means driving or maint.

[Bill Verburg]

In this case not treating them correctly means using them on track as the advertiseing implied that they were meant to be used.

[tshih]

If Porsche is honoring the warranty after the first destruction of the rotors then they are correct in telling people that they will not give up another set free (since they are so expensive to make at this time) if they are to be used for racing or track events. I think their initial claim of long life was to be highway driving (100,000 miles of regular driving). Track use can essentially be equivalent to 10-100X the normal wear and tear depending on how it's used. A racecar engine is expected to run one LeMans with great reliability but not multiple races so why should a set of novel rotors be expected to last longer than what they were designed for (normal street use). I'm sure the engineers are working on improving the toughness of their rotors to get the big advantages they confer to track abuse.