911 blasphemy?

[911SCfanatic]

As my addiction has been taking a stronger hold, I've recently been looking to pick up a second 911 for track events. My thoughts were to spend about 10K for the best available stock car (assuming I wouldn't then have to dump a ton of $$ to put onthe track) to see if I like it (like there would be any question!).

I was talking this over with someone who participates in about a dozen track events a year, and they said don't even bother with a 911--get a 944 or 944 turbo. The reasons they gave were:

1) better weight balance
2) handles better
3) you can get more for your $
4) cheap parts
5) they're better on track than a 911 in general

Any thoughts? I guess I'm looking for a reasonable starting point in this whole venture.

[304065]

Well, they are definitely cheaper.

There are many fine 944s out there but it is impossible to claim that they are "better." Go to the PCA club racing web site and check the race results, in any class, any track, any season, the 944 does not emerge with any particular advantage over the 911.

"Better" weight balance is also a subjective call. The 944 types have a near 50/50 weight distribution, but also a higher polar moment due to the front engine and rear transaxle. That's not "better" per se, just "different," just like a 914 or Boxster is "different."

At the end of the day it's a matter of personal opinion: some like the 911 for the shape, the history, the sound, etc. If the availability of a cheaper base car to start with (ALL the racing parts you will add are expensive regardless of whether 911 or 944) means that you will enjoy yourself more and be less inclined to care if you stuff it into the wall, I say go for it!

[ChrisBennet]

944's are a very good value. My 944S2 seems soft and squishy compared to my 911 but it is very easy to drive on the track. I think if I spent some money on suspension it would be faster than my 911. Parts may or may not be cheaper but IMO 944's are a pain to work on compared to a 911.
-Chris

[Joe Bob]

Get a 914......really tick off the purists. Then kick there butts in and out of the corners.

[svandamme]

i drove a 944 last week , in the rain , and altough it felt very tailhappy it was fun.

when i drove my 911 the same day , it didn't budge although it was poring rain and gusting wind, but i was very carefull because kept in mind that the 911 usually doesn't indicate up in advance when it's about to wag it's tail like a happy puppy.. so when something starts wagging in the rain it would be to late

i find the 944 easier to drive, also great fun and if i'de look for a track car, i would surely consider it

[jpachard]

I would see if you have a good mechanic in the area if you plan on getting a 944. While they are cheaper to purchase, the long term outlook is not so good if you plan on tracking the car alot. In this respect, the 911 is much better and more reliable.

Cheers, James

[Superman]

I like Mike's idea, though you'd have to spend some dough. A 914 with proper suspension, Boxster brakes and a 3.6L engine would irritate everyone.

[jpachard]

Originally posted by Superman
I like Mike's idea, though you'd have to spend some dough. A 914 with proper suspension, Boxster brakes and a 3.6L engine would irritate everyone.

It has been done and they self destruct on a regular basis. Of the 11 914's that started the club race at Limerock( many in GT category) 3 finished.

JA

[Joe Bob]

And the 3 finished in what position?????

Remember these are 30 year old starter Porsches. They were ridden hard and put outside wet. Nobody garaged the 914.....remember, it was a VW.....

[jpachard]

Originally posted by mikez
And the 3 finished in what position?????

Remember these are 30 year old starter Porsches. They were ridden hard and put outside wet. Nobody garaged the 914.....remember, it was a VW.....

Well, They finished 1st and 2nd in class. But they were the only cars in the class so it sort of defeats the purpose. The were in GT-4R and all GT-4S cars finished ahead and they are supposed to be slower...

[304065]

And the 3 finished in what position?????

Yellow Race
---------------
#78 Dolbow, GT5R, (72 914), 1st in class and 2nd overall behind #10 Hamblin, GT5S (67 911R-clone!). 2nd in GT5R was #75 James (70 914) who, despite turning a 1.02, only completed 23 of 30 laps. Without knowing the particular situation it's impossible to tell whether he broke or what. (Yours truly was having fuel issues and only did 25 laps!)

Blue Race
------------
#71 Peare GT2R, (70 914), 25 Laps, 2nd in class, 11th overall

Orange
---------
#14 Bob "Stable Energies" Kakascik, GT4R, (73 914), 1st in class, 5th overall. Bob has been developing that car for years and made a great showing, way to go. Metro's own Tony Nuzzo 3rd in class and 13th overall with his 914-6.

So you can see, the results are really inconclusive as to which CAR is best. There are so many other variables that go into it that it's impossible to say with any credibility that one car is a better platform than another.

[Lothar]

1. Suspension mods, safety equipment and so on are not going to be any cheaper on a 944, if you are going to get serious about track performance. You will still need torsion bars, sway bars, bushings, shocks, struts, performance allignment, etc.

2. Normally aspirated 944 is heavier and has less hp. That doesn't sound like more fun.

3. Easier to drive on track probably means more forgiving. However, more challenging plus the ability to throttle steer the car means more fun to me.

4. Since when are parts for a 944 cheaper than 911 parts? They both say Porsche on them. That means more $$$. And, if you own the 4 valve/cyl variants of the 944, a top end rebuild would naturally set you back more than a 911.

Yes, there other subjective reasons I prefer the 911. However, to say, "don't even bother with a 911", like a 911 would be an inferior track car, is just plain rediculous.

A well prepared 911 will, in general, demand more money as a fully or partially completed project car than a 944 or 914, but cheaper is not more value. Don't get me wrong, you could have a lot of fun in a 944 on track, but it is not necessary to diminish the 911 in order to justify the decision to buy the 944.

[Superman]

The Porsche 914 has (arguably) better weight distribution, it has a longer wheel base than a 911 (believe it or not) and a wider wheel base. Lower center of gravity. Lighter. Rear coilovers stock. I guess I'm not sure how other cars compete with these, assuming they finish the race. I can tell you they are a handful at autocross.

[911SCfanatic]

Good comments, guys. When I spoke with the person endorsing the 944 I was kind of taken aback because I really had not heard anyone take that stance before. As a matter of personal taste, I prefer the looks of the 911 over the 944, but never had driven a 944 for comparison. Lothar's comments 2) and 3) strike a chord with me--I'm really looking for a challenge and excitement and not necessarily a very forgiving ride.

With all that said, is a '86 or later Carrera with the factory turbo look option a good place to start. From what I understand, it provides everything the turbo has--brakes, t-bars, flared fenders, spoilers--just without the turbo engine. This way you get a lot of the chassis and suspension features you may want later all up front with a non-turbo engine that you'll likely want to modify later.

[Bruce Huling]

for another opinion, go to Joe at Stuttgart Southwest (480-968-6764) . He is an avid 944 SCCA class booster, with a top notch SHOP at his disposal, yet he still runs a 944 for certain reasons, some of which have been debated above. He told me I could pick up a race ready 944 for under 10k, and have a very competitive car that would be relatively (dangerous word, I know) low cost to race for several seasons. Pretty tough to do that with the 911. He also mentioned that operating costs were lower with the 944, although I didn't ask why. Maybe you should go to your local SCCA race and start asking questions and see if you can bum a ride. You might answer your own question by the size of grin either car puts on your face. Good luck!

[rpiper]

Turbolook cars are very heavy and not very aero. If you get serious about tracking the car you'll replace everything in the suspension except the brakes anyways. I'd say go with an SC, preferably a 78 or 79 non sr coupe. Spend the diff in price on seat time then on the suspension.

[zanick2]

Dont forget a 928. if you can find a stock S4 (928S4) for $8-10k, that is the fastest track car for the money. gutted 2700lbs, 300rear wheel hp stock with a set of headers. Put in the standard track upgrade stuff.
(ie cage, wheels/tires, seat, etc . The stuff all race cars will need) and you have a car that will be much faster than any 944 turbo, 911 for the money. 944turbos can get as fast, but they take a lot more tweeking. 911s are much lighter and can be as fast or faster, but the cost are much higher. Ive raced 3 of them, and the costs have never surprised me. Plus, 2 seasons of club and pro racing and I havent turned a bolt!!
(1:40.2 at laguna Seca, or estimated 2:30 at Road America)

the only issue is classification. the 928 gets hosed in PCA rules for its larger displacement. but , if you dont care about place, and also do other club events, (ie NASA, TCCRA, SCCA ITE) its a dream come true.

MK

[zanick2]

[zanick2]

these are the kind of cars that run with the 928 in PCA racing. if its a 914, it better look like this or it wont hang. (and this one was very expensive)
MK

[Lothar]

I have to agree with rpiper about turbo look cars. They are sought after because of the look and they are fairly rare. However, wider without the ponies will be slower because of drag. In a 911, I think the SC is a great value. They are simple enough to work on and very reliable. If you put them on a diet, you will not need the turbo brakes. A set of race pads for the track and a brake cooling kit will do great.

I ran at Carolina Motorsports Park with Pagid orange pads and big brake cooling ducts from the front bumper. The brakes were great all weekend without bleeding and that track is murder on brakes.

With an SC, get basic safety equipment and concentrate on seat time after that. I have the non sr/manual window variety, but sunroof coupe SC models are plentiful and a great value.