1977 911 starting problems

911fan77 · 12-13-2003, 12:59 PM

I'm a newbie to Pelican who just purchased a 1977 911 Targa. I've been lurking for awhile and now my baby has a problem. I knew going in there were going to be some problems. I have been driving her for about 3 weeks about every other day. I have noticed that the gas mileage is around 14-15 mpg aroud town . I thought this to be a little low but it could be my driving/shifting. It has been hit or miss on the starting in the mornings. Sometimes she would stutter when starting and if I hit the gas it would choke and die but usually started. Today, she stuttered, choked and had a little backfire and fails to start. Almost seems like there is no gas getting to the engine. My questions are 1) does the gas mileage seem low 2) does my starting problem seem like a fuel pump issue or 3) is this something greater? ANy help/advice would be appreciated. Thanks...

Dean

marcesq · marcesq's Garage

Dean:

Gas milage on these cars is not great especially if you are shifting above 4k.

Fuel pump on the '77 runs when the key is in the on position, so turn the key to on and listen up from for a whirring noise. If you hear it . . . well you know the rest.

Is the car garaged over night or out side??

Once started does it run ok?? (no missing, power ok, etc)

onewhippedpuppy · 12-13-2003, 01:09 PM

Dean, I'm still looking for my first 911 so I can't help you with your problem, but just to warn you, get some pics of your car. The people on here are great, but can be vicious without visual evidence of your ownership (just kidding). Congrats on your purchase, someone here will chime in that has had the same problem or knows the solution, they always do. Welcome

911fan77 · 12-13-2003, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by marcesq
Dean:

Gas milage on these cars is not great especially if you are shifting above 4k.

Fuel pump on the '77 runs when the key is in the on position, so turn the key to on and listen up from for a whirring noise. If you hear it . . . well you know the rest.

Is the car garaged over night or out side??

Once started does it run ok?? (no missing, power ok, etc)

I hear the whirring noise and the engie turns over but thats it. It is kept outside for now soon to be covered. Once it starts or used to start it ran like a bat-outta-hades. Sometimes it would stutter it first gear depending clutch letoff and gas pedal depression i.e. the friggin' driver. What else could this be?

Thanks,Dean

Oh...I have pics but they are too large for the system. I'll have to re-work them and add them to my next reply. Seriously.

RoninLB · 12-13-2003, 02:48 PM

there is a cold start injector, and a 2 wire sw on the left chain housing cover that's connected to your starter, etc

MotoSook · 12-13-2003, 02:55 PM

Could be anything...we'll need more..how did it run when it was running?

The CIS can be pickup...to rich or too lean or air leak...best you start reading all you can about CIS. Do a thread search here and read up. CIS questions come up all the time..the answers are there...you'll have to find it. If you can't and get frustrated...post everthing you can and we'll help you fix it.

The mileage is not good enough to tell that it's rich, but it could be. Too rich and you'll have a hard time starting. Does it have a pop off valve?

911fan77 · 12-13-2003, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Souk
Could be anything...we'll need more..how did it run when it was running?

The CIS can be pickup...to rich or too lean or air leak...best you start reading all you can about CIS. Do a thread search here and read up. CIS questions come up all the time..the answers are there...you'll have to find it. If you can't and get frustrated...post everthing you can and we'll help you fix it.

The mileage is not good enough to tell that it's rich, but it could be. Too rich and you'll have a hard time starting. Does it have a pop off valve?

When running it would idle a little on the rough side i.e. the antenna moves back and forth. Compared to my F150, it's a little rough. While driving it rus great. 1-3K RPM range is fine depending on which gear. A little sluggish in the 1-3K range but once it hits 3K+ she accelerates great. This is the first Porsche I ahev owned so I am at a loss for descriptions that you need. I have always drive US cars and don't know much about the fuel injection system. I will read up on the CIS. A neighbor down the street looked aqt it when I bought it (he has an late 80's that he has put on the track) told me I'd be adjusting the CIS quite a bit. I didn't figure it would be this soon. For a shade tree mechanic what can I expect makig adjustmets on the CIS or do I need to seek a professional? Any books or URLs that I need to know about above the technical docs from PelicanParts?

It has 101800 on the Odometer but it was rebuilt and has 18K on the new engine. The PO didn't drive it much in the past 8 months and was not very mechanical. As for the pop-off, I'd have to check. Where is that located?

Thanks for all the replies...
Dean

vash · vash's Garage

did you check this?

http://www.pelicanparts.com/911/technical_specs/911_cis_troubleshoot.htm

great place to start..

i am with souk, at this point it could be friggen anything.
even ignition.

but bad gas mileage can be leaking fuel injector, CSV or improperly air fuel mixture.

azasadny · azasadny's Garage

Dean,
My situation was similar on my '74 2.7 with CIs and it turned out to be bad spark plug wires and the spark plugs were gapped too wide... Troubleshoot very carefully, don't just start buying new parts because that will cost alot of $ and not necessarily fix the problem. Do a search here on "starting problems" and you'll have alot of information to work with. Don't be afraid to get your hands dirty and learn about how the engine and it's components (ignition, fuel system, etc...) work. Good luck!

911fan77 · 12-13-2003, 07:36 PM

Thanks to everyone on the advice and I appreciate all the help.
Dean

hoosierdaddy · 12-14-2003, 02:23 AM

Dean
Do you have a pop off valve ? I had the same problem with mine awhile back and found my pop off valve was not properly seated .
Jim

Rouxzy · 12-14-2003, 03:44 AM

Dean,
I went through the same thing when I got my '77. Chances are if you have 18k on the rebuild it still has the same plugs, fuel filter, ect. My car ran just okay with the occasional sluggish operation. I started with what should be done and that was a tune up. Plugs, cap, points, fuel filter, and check your wires and make sure they are securely on.
As far as driveability. The car won't have much power at 1-3k RPM's. It should kick in after 3k and will run out of breath at about 5k. Your best bet is to keep the RPM's above 3k. They like it that way.
Tom

RoninLB · 12-14-2003, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 911fan77
My questions are 1) does the gas mileage seem low 2) does my starting problem seem like a fuel pump issue or 3) is this something greater?

As Tom just stated, the 2.7 needs the 3k to run "clean".. so better to run 4th gear at 3.2k than lug in 5th at 2.8k rpm.

1] your millage should be in low to mid 20s in 5th at 65mph..

2] I replied to the cold start issue before assuming that all the routine maintence has been addressed. As previous posters here have stated, do All the routine tune-up procedures and see what your left with.

3] "something greater?" is that you have hooked up with some wonderful people

party hearty...... Ron

911fan77 · 12-14-2003, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rouxzy
Dean,
I went through the same thing when I got my '77. Chances are if you have 18k on the rebuild it still has the same plugs, fuel filter, ect. My car ran just okay with the occasional sluggish operation. I started with what should be done and that was a tune up. Plugs, cap, points, fuel filter, and check your wires and make sure they are securely on.
As far as driveability. The car won't have much power at 1-3k RPM's. It should kick in after 3k and will run out of breath at about 5k. Your best bet is to keep the RPM's above 3k. They like it that way.
Tom

[img]
Ok...after further reading and some great help from you guys, after it gets thru raining here I have a few things to check. The pop-off value is one. I don't know if I have one but I do know it backfired. The next is a definite tune-up and CIS check-up. Thanks for the docs and links. You guys have been a great help. Oh...here's the car.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads2/003487343071071443835.jpg[/img]

azasadny · azasadny's Garage

Dean,

Nice car! I like the wehhels and that color combination. Very nice and you'll enjoy it even more once you get the bugaboos fixed. I went through it with my car, stay patient and troubleshoot carefully and completely and it will save you $ and aggravation! Good luck!

timz · 12-15-2003, 07:51 AM

Dean,

That's a nice looking ride. I had a similar cold start problem that I had to farm out to a mechanic who got it sorted out. If you do a search under "cold start" you should find discussions that address you problem specifically.

Tim

911fan77 · 12-25-2003, 01:53 PM

Ok. Update. I had time this week to check out the pop-off value. There is one already. Whew. I noticed two things tho. One is that the second strap for the air-box is broken (metal catch on order from Pelican) and second is that the PO had a gap in the heater hose covered with tape. Now the tape is missing. It does start but I noticed two things when I drove it. One is that the power is now gone and two is that the smell of gas is more prevelant inside the cab and outside. What are the chances that this tape has been sucked into the heater hose and done damage? This car has what looks like the original heat exchangers. I am going to upgrade to SSIs and some type of exhaust anyway. Also need recommendations on exhaust i.e. Ansa, Monza, Bursh(?), etc. I don't want to drive it until I feel safer about screwing up the engine. I am goig to upgrade the plugs and wire too. They look somewhat original, too. Any advice??? Thanks for all the past help!
Dean

fintstone · fintstone's Garage

There is a cold start valve behind (7th injector) the engine. It only comes on when the starter is cranking. Have someone else crank the car over while you watch the fuel lines for a leak. Shine a flashlight at the back of the engine and watch for a leak when starting. Also check the connections at the fuel pump for a leak. I don't think the tape is a problem.

Rouxzy · 12-26-2003, 04:36 AM

Dean,
I don't believe the tape will cause any damage. Worse case it will get sucked into the heat exchangers and burn causing a bad smell in the car. As far as gas smell, I too had the same problem in my '77. Turns out the fuel line was leaking by the fuel pump. In order to really get a good look at it, is to take the belly pan off that protects the fuel pump.
I would take care of and eliminate the fuel smell first. Correcting that problem may cure your other problems.
As far as exhaust I too went the way of SSI's. I originally had the bursch muffler but didn't like the loudness of it. I've recently switched to the Dansk 2 in 1 out and really like the sound.
Tom