83SC starter problem

[Al S]

83SC, 115K miles. When engine is cold, the pinion gear on the starter does not mesh with the ring gear on the first attempt. It will always mesh the second time, and almost every time when the engine is warm. I gotta fix this soon before I mess up the ring gear.

A local starter rebuilder says VW Jetta's use the same starter drive mechanism, and it's common for the pinion to "mill" against the ring gear. He said maybe just a matter of cleaning up the leading edges of the pinion and/or ring gear.

I'm wondering if maybe the solenoid is "weak", not applying enough thrust on the pinion, or possibly if the drive mechanism has too much resistance.

What do you guys think?

[tab tanner]

I would just replace the starter with a remaned one with the miles you have on the car I think it deserves a starter

[jakermc]

I have a used starter from my '83SC that I could sell. Not sure of the mileage on it or what a used starter is worth, but I'd entertain offers.

[Al S]

I had that starter out a few months ago, dismantled it, and everything looked almost new. I did not, however, check all around the ring gear for worn areas.

I also considered a reman replacement, but Lordco wants $365.00!

Since I'm a cheap SOB, I would rather not replace whats not broken. Did anyone else experience these symptoms?

Thanks

[VaSteve]

Originally posted by Al S
I had that starter out a few months ago, dismantled it, and everything looked almost new. I did not, however, check all around the ring gear for worn areas.

Since I'm a cheap SOB, I would rather not replace whats not broken. Did anyone else experience these symptoms?

Thanks

My 83 SC seems to have the same problem.
The PO gave me a bunch of records and the starter was replaced in 99. So I don't know what the deal is. Is there a way to check the ring gear w/o a drop? I guess you could see a little bit through the hole were the starter goes in....
This has been perplexing me too. Since I don't drive all the time, I'm not worrying about it until it gets warmer...

[Al S]

Yes, the ring gear can be checked without a drop. Just need an assistant to slowly hand turn the engine while you look thru the hole (might need a mirror, though).

[VaSteve]

Al,
How do you "hand turn" the engine? Also, won't that mess up the timing in some way?
Thanks!
Steve

[Al S]

Steve, you can hand turn the engine by applying a wrench to the nut on the fan pulley. You will probably have to squeeze the fan belt together, against the pulley to get more traction. Make sure you turn in normal engine operating direction.

This will not have any affect on timing.

[Al S]

Good news Steve, I just swapped out the so called starter "drive". This is the pinion gear with the attached one way clutch and female spline - cost all of $50 Cdn. Not too difficult, let me know if you require more details.

Works like a charm

It seems that the old one way clutch was worn; it's free wheeling resistance was much lower than on the new one, and as the pinion made contact with the ring gear, there was not enough torque, supplied thru the clutch, to overcome the contact friction. Hence the starter motor would energize before the pinion had a chance to slip into the ring gear. Does this make sense? It might when you have a look at it. Anyway, this is my theory, and I'm stickin' to it!

[VaSteve]

Thanks, Al. I will keep this thread for when it gets a little warmer and I have time to look at it. The problem only happens one out of every 5 times, if that often.

[subdewd]

did you order from here?

[Al S]

Our host does not appear to offer this item.

I know Bosch makes the drive, but so does Wilson. 'Prolly a lot cheaper too. I don't have the part number in front of me, but I can get it if you're interested.

[MichiganMat]

mine does it too. I checked the starter pinion gear and the front of the gear was all rounded off so it couldn't mesh into the flywheel easily. If the starter wasn't so worn out I would go and buy a metal file and file the front of the pinion teeth back to a wedge so it would mesh correctly when the pinion is driven onto the flywheel. I may just drop the dough for a high-torque lightweight starter though. The sound is embarassing, but its also cheap

[NikDais]

mine does the same. Al, do you still have that part number?
Where did you buy it from?

[Gunter]

There is a cheap starter relay kit available from BOSCH# 0332 019 150 pre-wired 30A that is very easy to install. It is used a lot on VW buses because of the length of wires on rear engine vehicles. With this kit, the signal from the ignition switch energizes the solenoid in the relay instead of the solenoid in the starter, which means more juice to the starter solenoid. The kit comes with instructions and because it is soooooooo cheap ($25.00), even Al can afford it.

[NikDais]

I was looking for the starter drive part number as Al described above. I've tried giving direct current to the starter solenoid but it didn't make a difference.

[Kraftwerk]

Hmmm very interesting. My 83SC starts first time every time, but 86 VW takes two tries to get it to start >>just about every time...

[Al S]

NikDais, I bought the drive from Lordco, pt no 61-15-6412.

Not sure, but I believe this is also the Wilson pt no.

By the way, the old drive was definately the problem. The starter hasn't skipped a beat since.


Gunter, can you lend me $25.00?

[Al S]

Here's some pic's. All you get is the clutch, pinion and spring loaded yoke ring (not the yoke), a one piece unit.

There's approx 10 small balls, next to the rotor, that retain the drive onto the splined shaft of the rotor, by means of a spring loaded sleeve (the yoke ring). Kinda hard to explain, but it'll make sense when you see it. You need to compress the spring to disengage the balls. Make sure you catch the balls. If you lose some, they are 5/32" or 4 mm dia, available at bike shops.

[NikDais]

Thanks Al.