3.6 vram install & 915 rebuild progress report
 

It looks like I'm one of many in the crowd performing a 3.6 conversion right now, but I thought I'd share my project with the group. I'm replacing the stock 2.7 in my 1977 911S with a 1997 3.6 Vram. I went with a US OBDII engine with the drive block disabled and mapping updated by Steve Weiner at Rennsport Systems. During the conversion, I'm also replacing both rear wheel bearings, the CV joints & half shafts, a million other little things, rebuilding the 915, and adding a GT LSD. If you have any questions, I'd be happy to enlighten you on the decisions I made, and why I made them. Here we go:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/27_2.jpg
Original 2.7 in the car


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/enginesoundpad.jpg
This is the engine bay with the 2.7 removed. The sound pad was disintegrating, so I either had to sand & repaint or replace the pad


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/...ay_painted.jpg
I decided to sand & paint


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br8.jpg
I'm also having the transmission completely rebuilt, and a GT LSD added. This is a picture of the transmission installed in the car before the project


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/...se_cleaned.JPG
This is the case completely cleaned and painted. I think I lost 10lbs just by removing the sludge ;)


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/conversion8.jpg
Here's the old 2.7 out of the car. It dyno'd at 115 rwhp on a Dynapack dyno last week.


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/conversion9.jpg
Another view of the 2.7


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/conversion9a.jpg
A final view of the 2.7


more to follow in an additional post

I purchased my engine from LA Porsche. They gave me a 6 month warranty, and have been excellent at sending out the few pieces that were either missing or broken when the engine arrived. Here are more pics of the project:



http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/36_1.jpg
1997 3.6 Varioram upon arrival

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/36_3.jpg

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/36_4.jpg

I did quite a bit of research and archive searches on exhaust solutions for the 3.6 conversions. It seems as though most have gone with B&B headers and the Fabspeed/Flowmaster muffler. Others have used the excellently flowing factory 993 heat exchangers and adapted some type of custom muffler, or have used the factory catalytic converters with tips welded to the ends. My shop has been fabbing a nice system with mandrel bent pipes and Spintech mufflers, but I chose to go the same route as EMBS with the Triad muffler. I spoke to Dave at Triad, and I essentially have the second muffler he's made for this application. It bolts to the factory heat exchangers, and has provisions for the O2 sensors. I will have 2 O2 sensors, so I asked him to leave the bungs off so my shop can place them appropriately without interference.

I will have my car dyno'd again on the Dynapack dynamometer once everything is installed. Unfortunately, this won't be a very good a/b comparison for exhausts since my car will have computer mapping by Steve Weiner instead of the Steve Timmins'-popularized euro OBDI setup with Cyntex chips. Nevertheless, we should be able to tell if the Triad muffler greatly hinders power. Below is a picture of my Triad muffler, just before shipment.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/my_triad.JPG
The white X's are where he wanted to put the O2 sensors (I need 2 since I'm running US OBDII), and the white boxes are close to the factory locations.

I visited my shop this weekend, and took some pictures of the work in progress. They are as follows:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/conversion1.jpg


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/conversion2.jpg


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/conversion3.jpg


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/conversion3a.jpg


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/conversion4.jpg


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/conversion4a.jpg


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/conversion5.jpg
3.6 Vram engine being prepared for installation


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/conversion6.jpg


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/conversion7.jpg


That is the current state of affairs. It will probably be done in another couple of weeks, as the tranny needs to be re-assembled and the rest of the project sorted. My shop has never installed the 964-based RS heat tube being reproduced by Thom Fitzpatrick, but I'll post pics with their modifications. If anyone has pics of the area where the bottom of the tube meets up with the factory "heat pipe" (sorry, I can't remember the actual name right now), I'd appreciate seeing how you overcame this issue. I'll keep you posted!

Looking great! You are having a lot of the same “while your in there’s” done as I did; tranny, bearings, CVs, etc. Clean exhaust setup, I think that’s the way I would go if I had a 993 engine. Good Luck!

Great job!!

Show them some better pictures of your brakes;)

Invisible rotors? Or did you go a little crazy drilling holes? I bet those stay cool!

Ha! Yes, there are no rear rotors due to the in-progress replacement of the rear wheel bearings. I'll find some pics of my 993TT brake upgrade and post them here, as it was a fun project. Here's a picture of the car with all of the parts attached:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/at-park.jpg

How could anyone even think about a 964 or 993 when they could have something like that.
:)

Did you manage to ditch the SAI?

This is part of a thread from my 993TT brake upgrade over the summer:

I spent about 3 hours in the garage installing the right rear brake. The first thing I did was weigh the new brakes. I weighed the caliper, the caliper and pads, and the caliper, pads & rotor together. I used a digital scale that rounds to the nearest .5lb. My results for the 993TT rear brakes:

Caliper: 8.0 lbs
Caliper & pads: 10.5 lbs
Caliper, pads, and rotor: 30.0 lbs

Stock 1977 911S M caliper, pads, & rotor: 20.5 lbs
(btw, the calipers were almost the same weight, the difference was almost entirely in the larger rotor/heat sink)

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br1.jpg
Big Red on the scale


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br2.jpg
Original brakes


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br3.jpg
Wheel removed


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br4.jpg
Look at that puny thing!


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br5.jpg
Old vs. new calipers


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br6.jpg
Old vs. new rotors


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br7.jpg
Rotor removed (it doesn't look that rusty irl)


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br8.jpg
New brake line installed

More of the thread for rear brake:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br9.jpg
Doh! The custom mounting tabs don't see to be fitting! I spent awhile figuring out whether the adaptor was installed correctly on the caliper, etc.


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br10.jpg
Eventually, I figured out that I needed THIS!


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br11.jpg
mmm...manly tools!


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br12.jpg
I had to remove the ears that are typically used to mount the dust shields. Who needs those things, let's lighten this baby up! What else can I cut off of my car to save weight :)


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br13.jpg
Partly cut off


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br14.jpg
Ears = Gone


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br15.jpg
That's better

Last bit:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br16.jpg
mmm...Big Reds


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br17.jpg
Okay, I'll admit that I was a little nervous when I was putting the wheel on. It barely clears, but it clears!


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rfusi/big_reds/br18.jpg
3 hours later, I'm all set! Only 3 more to go!

AWESOME Rob!

You have a very sharp car!!

I think you are the only guy on the board with an OBDII 3.6 transplant.

I have no idea what the Triad does from a power perspective, but I very much like how it sounds.

You'll have factory motorsound lid in about three days to cover that filter. You are smart for staying away from the oiled cone filters.

I completely forgot to address the SAI issue due to the plehtora of details. I did ask Steve Weiner at one point, and he said it is a non-issue since I don't have a CEL. I will email my shop and report back on what they have to say.

That firewall looks great with the paint, but you might want to consider putting one of the Appbiz/Pelican sound pads in there before they put the motor in. The pad is less bulky and lighter than the factory pad, and makes a noticeable difference in interior sound and heat. If it's a street-driven car, especially, it's a great way to go. (And it's also a reflectorized silver, which adds light to the engine bay and makes everything look pretty cool.)

Awesome project, though. I'm jealous of your vram torque curve already.

Why? As long as you don't over oil them, I don't see the downside. Won't the factory motorsound airbox interfere with the hinge/lid shock?

man oh man... i'm getting displacement envy... that thing will scoot!!!

That looks nasty. Very, very nasty.

Rob, I'm curious about the aeroquip in the back ground. Did you do something different or just replumb stock?

Mike, I guess it is just personal preference. I had a cone at one time on my engine as well. I think the stock filters are way better than any aftermarket cone. IMO, a K&N filter ruined a Bultaco engine I had.

I have no interference with the airbox. It is however extremely tight.

On the heat tube, sopme to you have to stick a 4x4 or ? in the hole and move it forward so tube will fit easy!!! they bend easy, looks great, Kevin

Are you referring to the braided line lying on the 3.6? If so, that is actually a loose line not connected to anything. I believe that's the line that will hook from the engine to the front oil cooler thermostat in the wheel well.

Several people I spoke with, including my shop doing the installation (Powertech, in NJ) and Steve Weiner, suggested that the stock airbox is actually superior to the cone filters. I believe this is due to CFD considerations and also the fact that they are pulling air from a slightly cooler location. I modified a stock airbox lid to simulate the cup airbox lid. The Motorsports airbox lid I purchased from Embs is actually for a friend's 993.

I also prefer the stock air cleaners. An additional advantage is the intake is perfectly situated to get the coolest possible air.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1076272548.jpg

On mine no mods were required above the sheetmetal to use Thom's tube, but the heat from the B&B/964 heat ducts necessitated some mods
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa..._008_small.jpg

The top piece where the tube connects to the engine needs to be swapped for the 964 equivalent piece
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa..._006_small.jpg

Forgot to add the part # for the 964 air duct(top piece)
964 106 403 01

~$35

Rob, your car rocks. I've never seen it in the area. I'm from Flemington and drive through L'vlle every time I go up there. I went to the Lawrenceville School too. I hope to see your car sometime, maybe at SP or a NJ event.

Richard, I'm around! My parents live between Ringoes & Sergentsville, so I'm actually in the Flemington area a fair amount, and often in this car during nice weather.

Yes, it is gone. My shop removed the air pump system and plugged the holes.

The transmission rebuild continues:

http://home.comcast.net/~rfusi/915_1.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~rfusi/915_2.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~rfusi/915_3.jpg

Good job! Have you thought about a trans cooler? I love spending someones elses $$
;)

I investigated it a bit and I'm going to see how hot it gets before I move forward. I'm a fan of the KISS approach, so if it runs cool enough without additional aids, I will leave it as-is.

A few of my friends recently took the Bruce Anderson/Jerry Woods engine rebuilding and transmission class, and they came back with quite a bit of useful information. According to Jerry Woods, 915 transmissions can run relatively hot before the need for additional cooling arises. I'll have to check the notes, but I believe Jerry said you can run them as high as 270F before you need to worry about it. My shop (Powertech) concurred, and said to keep it under 280-300. Nevertheless, I'm going to measure the temperature at my first track event to see where I stand.

As far as spending money, I seem to be doing pretty well on my own right now ;)

Sounds like a good plan. As far as I know Jack is the only one that has actually installed a temp. gage on his trans, and monitored it. He has reported no problems in street use but some frightening #s on the track. I can't remember what they were but they were eye opening :eek:

I had a long conversation w/ Gary Fairbanks about this issue. He also felt that for most users the coolers are unnecessary. He desscribed it as a "hurricane of oil"

I fell into the camp that it couldn't hurt and it's only money;)

I'm interested in seeing how Steve's Giac chip performs. The Audi guys seem to like them alot.

Will you be able to have a useable diagnostic port?

My shop said that the 915 actually holds a relatively consistent temperature after it gets hot. In other words, if you're running on the track and it's at 250F, you can pull into the pits and let the car sit there for a few minutes and it will still be at 250F (the case and everything). I have not done enough research to tell you how true that statement is, but his advice was to simply measure the transmission temperature with a pyrometer at the end of a run. I was planning on adding a temperature sensor to my transmission, but I decided against it based on that knowledge.

I am also extremely interested to see how Steve's chip performs. I get a very good feeling from him, and his advice has always been quite sound. My only regret is that I won't have any before/after data for comparison, so I won't truly know what the chip did for me. If there are any special graphs you would like to see, just let me know and I'll have them printed out. As you recall, I'll be using a Dynapack dynamometer for the analysis.

Also, I will have a usable diagnostic port.

That is one sweet setup! Have you figured out which way to go with the throttle cable set up?

"I went with a US OBDII engine with the drive block disabled and mapping updated by Steve Weiner at Rennsport Systems."

Can you explain what a "US OBDII" is? Also, what is meant by the "drive block (being) disabled?

By the way, I noticed that you are in Lawrenceville NJ and I'm just outside of Philadelphia and work in Princeton. Who's doing the install for you? and where did you find the motor? Thanks.


Don

Details Please.....I fried a DME trying to hook a port up (I think I charged the "K" line..got my wires crossed (yes I am an idiot).
<br>
Guess I shouldn't have been so quick to dis the OBDII, sounds like your going to end up with a better package than any of the OBDI crowd!!

Ohhhh is that a cool car Rob. Nicely done. I love Continental Orange #107. You have a hot rod that's just retro enough that it will be a sleeper! The ricers won't know what hit them. Very very nice job. Keep us posted!

For the throttle cable, my shop cuts a cable to the correct length and fabricates a little bracket. I can take a picture for you next time I'm at the shop.

US=United States as opposed to RoW (Rest of World), or a european engine

OBDII refers to the computer system. OBD I is a more simple system and has socketed chips that are easy to swap in & out. OBD II is more complex, and you need to unsolder, program, and resolder the chip during to reprogram. This makes it more expensive and more difficult to change the computer mapping.

Drive block is the alarm system on 993s, which is incorporated into the computer. It ties into the other systems of the car, and it must be disabled in order to run the engine after a conversion.

There are many good sources for engines, but I ended up buying mine from LA Porsche due to their price, availability, and warranty. Powertech, in Rockaway, NJ, is doing the installation.

I don't know if my setup will be better than OBDI, but it will certainly be a bit different. What sort of details are you looking for?

There are several of us that would like to have a diagnostic port. AFIK only Moses has had one successfully installed and his shop apparantly doesn't wish to share the secret. You will be #2