This is a great thread. It's of particular interest to me as I'm in the process of completing the purchase of a 1979 911sc....

My first car was a 1989 Honda CRX Si. Brilliant-handling car, especially for me at the time. It was light (~2100lbs), and manual steering gave it a great feel of the road. It was biased toward understeer, but was light and low enough to change direction with ease.

Next car was 1990 audi coupe quattro. Nice cruiser, but very heavy, remote, and really made me really miss the CRX.

Right now, I have two E30 BMWs -- a track-prepped M3, and a 325is for the street. The M3 is hands down the best-handling car I've ever driven, both on the street and at 10/10ths on the track. It has power steering, but the feel of the road and the weighting are all impeccable. The balance of the M3 makes it very easy to choose your attitude in corners; understeer, TTO, power-on oversteer are all readily available... and it's light enough (~2650 lbs) that it remains quite tossable.

I bought the 911 for the street, and mostly just because I want to experience one. I've driven a few, always in the dry, and none above 6-7/10ths... in my test drives, though, I found the steering to be very fluid and direct, and enjoyed how eager the car was to change direction. From what I've heard, 911s can have a tendency toward initial understeer at the limit... true?

I know that the best way to get to know it would be to take it to the track... and while I'm curious to see what it would be like, the hassle of keeping two elderly german cars maintained to track standards would just take too much money and time. But I plan to take it to the Boston chapter's wet skidpad skills days (I'm an instructor) to get a sense of what weight transfer in a rear-engine car is all about.

Anyway, I've been reading this board for a few weeks now, and it looks like a great group. I hadn't intended to post quite yet... but this thread really made me want to respond.

Thanks!

Welcome to the board Dave. I found my 911 most unpleasant when I first bought it & practiced some slides in the wet at a empty stadium parking lot. Seems it took alot to get the back end to let go & once it gets to a certain point it's quite violent. I was used to the light ass ends of Mustangs that are easy to break lose & control. I've got alot to learn this year.

I think the charm of a 911 isn't that it it the best handler in the world but rather it is so entertaining to drive. It is a challenge to go fast (at least for me) but when done right (shifting etc.) makes you feel like Juan Manuel Fangio or somebody.

I know by looking at the speedo that I can go through a favorite set of esses or take an offramp at much higher speeds in my 928, but it is so very much more entertaining to attempt to do the same thing in my SC. Having that weight out back waiting to break loose and the super communicative steering and rawness is such a hoot. To me it is really like having a street legal go cart. Plus the sounds it makes gives me goose bumps.

It isn't on my top ten list of best handlers but it is in the top 2 as far as fun quotient goes for my daily commute. It competes for number one with my 929RR.

Cheers,

Geoff

Interesting that the lighter 911 would have lower limits than your 928. Do you think that's because of any inherently lower limits, or because you're less willing to push it? Or is it something else (tires, etc)?

My 928 is WAY more neutral handling. When it lets go it is just a simple flick of the wrist correction wet or dry. In the 911 when it lets go it is REALLY FAST HANDS time or it will spin, especially in the wet. You are right on Dave about feeling less than willing to push 9/10ths during city driving in the SC as it does not suffer fools (me in most cases) lightly. On the track it is way easier to push the limits. The rapid change from understeer to oversteer in a 911 can be very entertaining (read scary) at times. That Weissach rear axle thing might really work on the 928. :) Most of the go fast guys usually pin theirs to make it feel less rubbery in their race cars however. Would like to take a C2 out and trounce it to see if it has the same feel as the 928s rear end as I beleive that is the first model 911 to have that engineering. The other time I notice the inherent difference is at the big end of the speedo. My SC has a front chin spoiler and rear Carrera spoiler (which is way better IMO than w/o) and feels like it needs a lot of my attention to feel safely pointed above 120ish. The 928 doesn't ever feel like that even over 160 indicated on the speedo (who knows how optimistic the speedo is?). That and the fact that the v8 just is really loping along at my normal cruise speed of 85ish on the freeway compared to the howl of close to 4000 revs. in the 911 is the reason why it is the highway steed of choice. But in town.... the 911 is hands down the most entertaining car I have ever piloted.

Funny how a bunch of 928ers bash 911s (stupidly) when they have no reference point. To me the perfect garage must have one of each.

Cheers,

Geoff

I love Porsches, the way they feel, handle. BMW also has a similar feel, even the big 7 series fully loaded. Some sort of magic in the engineering. A MB may actually perform almost as good, but it totally lacks the special feel of a good performance car, even their small, performance car FEELs like a boat. Why do I keep saying AWESOME about the BMW? I have been around the track in a 7 series, with 5 people in it. That car can beat a lot of Porsches, mostly due to the drivers capability, but still, a driver can only do so much, the rest is designed into the car.

Some people seem to feel a small car like the M3 handles much better than a larger car, like the M5 or M6, I can't agree, and I have driven all of them, a lot. A small car will kick but in a typical parking lot race, but on a real road track, eg Willow Springs, Michigan International Speedway, or the real road, the M6 kicks but, A couple of La Carrea classics prove this point.

My opinion is that the Porsche feels "sporty" while the M6 feels more "refined" , but both feel great on the road.

No question that the M6 would feel more refined than a 911. It's a heavier GT car with vastly different aspirations.

In my experience, though, the M3 *does* handle significantly better than the M6. It's all about the lower weight, and better weight distribution. The M6 has good manners on the track, and will let an experienced driver feel comfortable pretty quickly. But the additional weight and inferior weight distribution will give an M3 a pretty clear advantage in tossability and outright speed.

Have you driven an E30 M3 on the track? It's pretty raw -- light weight, a buzzy, high-strung 4-cyl engine.

Anyway, I didn't mean to turn this into a conversation about BMW handing. I'm really looking foward to driving the porsche, and I'm very curious to see how it behaves.

-d

OK Jack, heres the bet.

I take an M3. (E36 or E46), you take the M6. We take some laps aroung Lime Rock. Or Road Atlanta.

Who will win?

(I know, that doesn't prove the better handler, but I would be surprised it the M6 "kicks butt" on the M3.)

Don't know, but I do know at MIS and Willow springs and Cal speedway, the M6 will walk all over the M3, esp when the speed gets above 130mph.

Put another way, on any track that a Ferrari can do well.

Jack, what kind of times does an M6 run at Willow?

Not much data here, But with 3 passengers, taking it easy (for a noontime ride at a race event) in the low 1:15 or so---just kidding The majority of my experiece with the M6, since it dosen't fit in any real race catagory,is high speed driving schools. The M3's do well as long as the speed tends to be low, ie less than 120 to 130 MPH. But once you get to 130 the M3's are flat out, and the M6 has 2 gears to go. I usually pass the M3s when I just shift into 4th, thats where they top out, I can and do continue to almost 180 Mph at 7200RPM in 5th gear. This is the real OPEN ROAD racing range, ie more than 130 MPH but less than 200 MPH. This is where the M6 also tends to beat the Ferraris, Vets, and any other thing that tends to go really fast. There have also been well documented M6 and M5 road race results, in the Mexican road racing and the Silver state classic.

Bring it out May 17 to Willow with Open Track Racing, and we'll swap rides in passenger seats for a comparison. :)

You know what they say, Snowman:

"When the green flag drops, the bull***** stops" ;)

You must have quite an M6! Most contemporary sources quote the M6's top speed at around 149mph:
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/m6.htm

That *is* 6mph faster than the top speed for an E30 M3 (143mph), but well below the potential of any later M3 1995 on.

But what does that have to do with handling and cornering?

I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here.

I love driving my 911, I love the sounds, the smells, the feel of a machine that feels like a glove between me and the road.

That said, my old Audi S4 would destroy it in every regard where performance was concerned. It was faster, cornered faster, was absolutely predictable, etc. It was perfectly stable coming out of a corner at 130mph, etc.

The beauty of the 911 isn't in the numbers, its in the feel.

dotorg,

Amen to that.

My S2 Avant will numercially outperform my 911 on every aspect, but which is the car I take for a drive.....the 911.

Ok its a 'baby one' 72E but still pretty quick.

But its all in the feel and the fun, cos unless you're going to track the car you're on your way to jail above 7/10s in most of these beasts.

Interestingly the M635Csi (labelled as the M6 in the USA) used the extensive European Touring Car Championship chassis work, developed by the Schnizter team, with a revised M1 engine...so whilst it was never raced officially, as was the M3, it still has a pretty good pedigree. I can believe a modded 6 giving many cars a good run for their money on the track. Love to see some comparisons.

Of them all the M3 is the only racer in disguise, not the 911 or the M6.

Ideally I'd have a E30 M3 to complement the 911 and the S2......

oh and a Lotus Seven

and an RS

dreeves: I thing BMW, as most german car manufacturers, limits their cars to 250 km/h (~150 mph), at least here in europe.

That's true; they do that here as well. But the 250km/h limit translates to about 155mph, which is above the 149mph reported on that site. And limiter or not, I still don't see a 256hp 80s M6 getting up anywhere near 180mph.

Dotorg (george, right?), I completely agree with your attitude about your 911; it's exactly why I've stuck with older cars in general. Lower limits (there has been progress, after all), but a great experience. I'll trade top speed and absolute Gs for better steering feel and a fun drive any day.

On many tracks, my E30 M3 can't keep up with a well-driven E36 or E46 M3, or 996... but I'm usually having way too much fun to worry about it :-)

Dave, yes, George :)

Sounds like there is an educational opportunity in front of one Jack or another. In my professional life, many conversations occur where the most important information is not on the surface of the conversation, but under it somewhere. I enjoy this. As I enjoyed JO's response which essentially was:

".....Umm...those are very impressive figures Jack. So impressive in fact that I would appreciate an opportunity to witness that level of performance in person. Perhaps you could be so generous as to bring this machine to Willow where I might experience the ride of my life. And as long as you're there, I'd offer to bore you with a leisurely cruise in my humble Porsche which has a top speed nowhere near the velocities you achieve, but which seems nevertheless to narrowly avoid complete embarrassment on track days."

My sense is that, before I let Jack take me on a trip around Willow, it might be wise to visit my doctor for a stress test. Just in case.

Something must have been seriously wrong with my old M6. It would no WAY go past 150. If it was speed limited it was a waste as it would not do 155.


Cheers,

Geoff

OK, first, the 911 handles very well compared to most cars which, at least in the states, are not really designed to handle. At higher limits the 911 will handle very well with a driver that is experienced (and skilled) at driving a 911 (or car with its characteristics). For your average person there are lots and lots of cars that will handle better since they will be more forgiving and less inclinced to bite. The 944 for instance, with its weight distr and its high polar moment it's great for the average joe.

Regardless, I love driving my car. It's my daily driver, has been for nearly 3 years, and everyday is as exciting as the first (actually more since I am more comfortable in the car now).

Hmm, the M6 will out handle an M3, huh?? I suppose under some circumstances that is true, but that would generally ne for the same resons that a 996 outhandles an early 911, mostly because of years of technology in suspension, chassis, and tire. An otherwise similar M3 should beat an M6. Yes, the Cayenne does have very high limits due to massive amounts of technology being thrown at it. An M6 or Cayenne is much like a 911, essentailly a problem in design that was worked around. It's fact that lighter weight is better for all aspects of handling, so really heavy vehicles are at a disadvantage right from the start. Very similar to a car with most of the weight hung out back, fortunately those disadvantages can be tamed or conquered with enough brain power thrown at them.

I would say that the 968 I had before has better handling than my 911 in the sense that it was perfectly balanced and neutral until you got very close indeed to the limit. The 911 is definitely more tail-happy.

But I am very, very happy with my choice. :-)

I think that's the common theme here. If you want perfect handling, there are better cars (probably AWD ones for the ultimate in 'do as they are told no matter what' cornering). If you want a car which is just a delight to drive, then the 911 delivers waaay more than the theoretical handling characteristics would suggest.

Ben

I am trying to recal the car magazine that tested a 911 (993 or 996) and several exotic mid-engined cars a few years ago. the result was that the 911 did unusually well -- not just in braking, but also in acceleration "handling" issues, and in cornering. As I recall it was #1 in most areas.

Actually, it seems like most of the comparisons I've read place the Porsche in the #2 or #3 slot, as far as the numbers go, but the drivers routinely pick it as the overal #1, and can't usually explain why. Or at leats that's what I seemed to find when I was researching the question "What car is the most fun to drive?" about a year ago.

Dan

"visit my doctor for a stress test"

- Good advice.

I've never ridden with Jack (or anybody on this board, I think) but I recently got a ride with a DE instructor/GT-2 owner thru LA's twisty fun streets. I would add to the above that you should not eat a whole lot of sushi before doing this. (No, I did not deface his gem.)

Great thread!, my 325i (I know it is no M3..cut me some slack), is just so damn easy to drive fast with its 50/50 weight very responsive in both steering and acceleration. It can almost make a "great" driver out of a "good" driver. I have driven many sports cars in my day and I would have to say the 911 is one of the most intimadating. I really am nervous as times to really, really push it. I have had it sideways a few times and it has always come back to me but...wow. It really takes skill and concentration to drive one of these on the 'ragged edge'....thoughts!

Ok people, heres the scoop from the horses mouth, a direct copy of my BMW owners manuel.
For the numerically challanged, 255 kPh equates to 258 Mph top speed. Officially the highest ever for a production BMW. THats electronically limited. Remove the limit and it goes up considerably. And I have driven it at that speed, which it does quiet easily.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1080187830.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1080187845.jpg

All these numbers are conservative. For example I have a time slip from Milan Dragway, just outside Detroit, 13.4 sec in the quarter mile.

Theres an older video that Cunningham BMWs Jeff Gerkin made of the La Carrea Classic road race. If you watch this video you will have a good view from the drivers seat of what a stock M6 can do. I have been on the track with Jeff and a ride with him is way past E ticket. The M6 came in 2nd overall amoung a group of about 180 of the fastest cars in the world. EVERY m arque was well represented.

1. 255km/h = 158mph.

2. I think M6s are wonderful cars, and I would love to own one.

3. If you look at the graph in the image you posted, you might notice that the M635CSi is limited more by its gearing than by electronics. Based on your numbers, its theoretical top speed is 159mph. If you want to find out more, please see http://www.mysportscar.com/tools/topspeed.htm

4. This still doesn't really have anything to do with handling.

mmm... I agree!

And coming from the other side, I feel the same way about the 911. That's why I have one coming tomorrow :-)

Thats where the 1 G corners with a cup of coffie in one hand comes in. With good rubber, ie R compound rubber the car does 1 G easily, and is equally controllable. An aquatinance of mine, who is also a famous race car driver, who used to race Corvetts, as a profession and big time winner, first told me the difference between a say Corvette and BMW, ie a Corvette does 1 G corners, with all your attention, but a BMW does it while allowing you to drink your coffie.

When I was a tike the crazy-must-have BMW was an M1...damn sexy!

...if I wasn't on the lookout for a 911 right now the car I would be after would definitely be a 1973 3.0 csi!

Jack, (Snowman), A BMW M6 is undeniably a beautiful car, and a great performer for its era, (and considering its heft). I used to know a guy w/ a turbo-ed M6 that really flew. You don't need to BS about the car, it's a great car.

I have a challenge for you: Bring it out to Willow Springs for the next Open Track event, we'll give you a 3/4-full cup of scalding hot mud w/ no lid, check your ride for hidden cup holders or a coffee dispenser to refill the cup with, (cause I'm sure as hell not going to ride along while you win this bet), ;) , then you go out and crank off a couple of ~1:30 laps. This should put you near ~1G somewhere on the track, and driving w/ one hand of course since the other is holding the boiling mud.

If you return w/ all of the coffee still in the cup and decent lap time, (let's say under 1:35 to make this easy), I'll pay you $1,000 in U.S. cash. If the coffee is on your nuts or the passenger floor, $1G to me. Plus the loser has to apologise profusely on this BBS for either doubting your word or pulling our dicks, (as the case may be). What do you say? :)

Awesome!!

I like the track/coffee bet -- good plan. Better idea, though -- why don't we all just drop trousers and measure arbritrary portions of our anatomy? That'd be a good bit simpler, cheaper, and reduces the odds of hot java ending up someplace unfortunate.

In all seriousness, I'll admit to being somewhat illiterate. I'm picturing "BMW" and seeing a box with rounded corners so it's modern and stylish, and am not seeing in my mental image this "M6" of great beauty of which you speak. Would one of the M6 lovers please post a pic or two, so the unwashed masses (ie me) know what we're talking about? Thanks.

Dan

Here's one:

http://www.msiimports.com/pics/M6/DSCF0589.JPG

the classic lines, subtle chrome trim, 2 seats and a cooler in the back, "shark nose"....... and best of all, that inline engine w/ individual throttle bodies, the set up and power that the pathetic E36 (US version) couldn't even match years later. great car.

hey Dave, where in Cambridge are you? I used to hang out all the time in Davis Sq. and up and down Mass Ave. I go back ab. once a month.

Between Central sq and the river.... just off pearl street. Let me know if you're in town.

Man you guys will discuss/argue anything.

This has to be a troll. As Dave pointed out, 255kph is 158mph (actually, I make it just over 159mph which was probably quoted as 160mph at the time). No-one who owned the car could confuse the two.

Ben