Setting up for a fast turn
 

Another post inspired me to post this. How do most of you guys set up for a 90 degree turn? I will tell you how I do it:

I still really haven't figured out the entire heel-toe thing. So bear with me outside of that. OK, usually I am going at a pretty good clip, when I gauge my distance to the turn I am coming in hot and then go to heavy, heavy brakes, slowing until I think it is near safe to take the turn (depending on conditions, elevation, surface etc). While I am on the brakes I am also on the clutch, as I near the apex I am into second and am off the clutch fast and on the gas heavy. Kind of slingshots me through the turn. Of course this is only for spirited driving!

I would say this is similar to my BMW however I think I use more of the 911s power to slow the car and fly through the turn, the brakes do most of the stopping, but when you pop into second the car hunkers down and is ready to just fly through the turn.

Thoughts? is this similar to other methods!

i just don't think that any of the track guys are gonna have an opinion...:D
ryan

It depends on that turns priority.
Is it a type 1 before a long straight.
A type 3 turn with several linked turns in a series.
Flat, on or off camber.
If it's in the middle of a field somewhere I'd check the track out for oak trees;) . Perhaps take a late apex to leave myself a safe margin on the track out.

Slow in fast out.....track newbies mantra

I take it your doing this stuff on the street?

Im glad there are a few miles between where you drive and I do

Re: Setting up for a fast turn
 

Hmmm, you should really be on the clutch only long enough to execute a gear change. Also, try getting the car in the proper gear for the turn before the apex. Have (safe) fun!

SmileWavy

As a general rule, rearend first tends to not be a good way to go through a corner. (though of course many 911s have).

Do yourself a favor, go to a DE, learn how to drive that thing before you go off the road. I'm amazed you haven't yet if you really go around corners the way you just described at any real speed.

You might find some advice here on what to do differently.

Stef

Re: Re: Setting up for a fast turn
 

Absolutely. I brake to the proper speed and downshift before I enter the turn, then accelerate all the way through it.

as I reread your comments,,,
heavy heavy brakes, pop the clutch and heavy gas....
does not sound very smooth.
To maintain your tire's ulitmate grip while cornering at the limit you cannot pop the clutch, with a little instruction you might find you can improve you cornering speeds.
Read some books on performance driving, I did and I'll be happy to tell you a couple if you are intersted.

As a novice, no braking or shifting is to be done while turning. All in a straight line approaching the corner. Trail braking comes with training and seat time. Not even Micheal Schmacher shifts while turning. Sounds like you've got a handle on the braking, but you need some work on the downshifting so you're in the correct gear by turn in.

I used to practice downshifting while driving city streets and suburban roads. The funny thing is, you don't shift that much at a track; you never slow down as much as you need to on public roads. Most tracks are set up for a fairly high average speed. Heel and toe is easier to do in 5th, 4th and 3rd than it is in the lower gears. Try it, you'll see.

Thanks all, Yes maybe my description was rough. Yes I am in the proper gear before I am into the turn (apex). I am not rearend first through the turn, it just kind of sucks down and more pushes the car through the turn. I have done some BMW autocrossing and actually did race shifter carts for a very short while. I consider myself to be a very safe driver, I won't curse myself by telling you how long it has been since I have had any tickets or accidents! Just having fun nothing real crazy! Nothing like I have tried on a track. Ted I would be interested in some books specific to Porsche Performance driving, what do you recommend?

There's only one book specific to Porsche Performance driving, and it's not bad. Porsche Performance Driving Handbook by Vic Elford.

Another great book on driving is Paul Frere's Sports Car and Competition Driving Handbook, then don't forget about Barber's book, Bondurants, Hank Watts - Secrets of Solo Racing, etc...

My guess from your description is that you are probably slowing down more than you need to for your corners, but then I'm no instructor, so I'll leave it to them to tell you. As already stated, slow in fast out. Sounds like you've got the basics down, slow down, turn, then gas.

Another must-read IMO is "Drive to Win" by Carroll Smith.

It would be nice to have book on how to drive and set up a 911 for racing but I'm not aware of it. Most performance driving books will help you weather you race a 911 or a limo.
The books below are fantastic reference resources too. I have read them and still a month later I'll pick one up to reread a chapter or two.
1st book
Going Faster
Mastering the Art of race driving.
From the Skip Barber Racing School
By Carl Lopez
This book really felt like they were talking right at my level.

2nd book.
Drive to Win.
The essential guide to race driving.
By Carroll Smith.
Awesome book, a little more advanced than the one above.

A Twist of the Wrist.
The Motorcycle racers handbook.
Thumb through it at the book store.
The author has a unique writing style, might interest you.

I like the Hank Watts book's too though they are more entry level.
He does have some awesome track notes for some Nor Cal tracks.
One of Hank's books is on the GGR PCA site now.
http://pca-ggr.org/tthandbook/
Or here too.
http://pca-ggr.org/ttvenues.html

Just remember the success of mastering a turn is not the set up or turn itself, its the exiting speed after leaving a turn. Do everything right and you'll see these speeds and rpm's climb.

As far as books specific to driving a 911 -- there's a reason that there is only one. To be honest, driving a 911 is not that different then driving any car where the engine is behind the driver. So all of the books writen towards single seat drivers apply pretty much equally to driving a 911. Driving a front engine car (like a Mustang or most BMW's) is a little bit different.

I'd also agree with the above list. A couple of books which are worth while but not mentioned...

The Technique of Motor Racing by Taruffi -- The ideas that he discussed 50+ years ago still apply today. Sure the brakes are better and the grip levels are higher, but smooth and sensitive remains the key.

The Racing Driver by Dennis Jenkinson -- Another oldie but goodie. Sterling Moss has always compared well with the greats such as Fangio, Stewart, Sienna and Schumacher. Jenks does a really good analysis of what made Moss so great.

Jackie Stewarts Principles of Performance Driving -- Jackie rates tops in my book for not only being incredible smooth; if you ever see a clip of him he just never seemed to be going that fast. The thing is that he was one of the first to actually describe how he did it.

Remember, you should practice being smooth everywhere. Practice being fast on the track.

Just go in really hot, turn in, and abruptly lift off the throttle. 911's just love that.

;)

mto

Basically you should not be in a coasting state at all. The clutch is for shifting gear period. After setting up the balance of the car you should be steering with the throttle to maintain that balance through the turn, using the wheel to correct the car rather than steer the car. This applies to your BMW also.

I found, early in my days of learning performance driving, I did the same sort of stuff the original poster mentioned, because I couldn't heel/toe and couldn't seem to downshift smoothly prior to a turn, so I'd tend to coast turns with the clutch in.

You learn very quickly that a) its slow and b) you're screwed, badly, if you need to get back on the power quickly because you start to oversteer.

I am not sure what is meant by "coasting" I would have to say I am doing anything but. Let me put it more simply, how about gas, brake, gas. I think coasting would be kind of doing nothing letting the car go on its own? I am way into gear before I even start my turn.....maybe I need to repost my original thougth more clearly? Actually I was hoping to read how others may approach a turn, however I have not had one real response only critiques.

Awesome!! Just remember, if you spin often enough, sooner or later you will hit the apex.

James

How are the techniques different for 911's with AWD (aka the 964C4)? Is it even possible to throttle oversteer with AWD?

Re: Setting up for a fast turn
 

I think where I highlighted is where the confusion is. What people are saying here is that you should not being doing anything close to the apex that would upset the car. This includes completing a shift.

You want a driving description? OK. I approach the turn on the outside line looking at the apex. I brake and downshift, let off the brakes, put my foot on the gas and bring the engine to a constant speed equal to the road speed. No confusion here, the car is in gear and the clutch is out. The car is neither decelerating or accelerating. I maintain this constant speed as I start the turn in. This should all come to completion exactly when turn in begins. Trail braking is an exception and will continue for a few more feet into the corner. Once nearing the apex, which is on the far side of the corner arch, I apply some more gas. As I get right at the apex, I increase the gas if I can to test the car's traction. As I pass the apex, I roll into the gas as much as the car will take expecting full throttle as soon as 3/4 way thru the turn. I am also turning straight or unwinding the wheel as my power and speed increase. Straighten out, shfit up and get ready to do it again.

Thanks Zeke, good description! A couple of questions, when you downshift is the car actually slowing anymore in addition to the braking you have just completed? When you say you are matching the road speed this is post braking I asusume? You have to be very close to the turn at this point, aren't you sort of transitioning from decelleration to accelleration? Thanks again!

Let's start there; yes, in performance driving, you're always either gassing or braking ecxcept that brief moment of getting the car into the turn and "set" on it's suspension. Any abrupt movements at this point will put the car out of control as the car is on the edge of adhesion. The braking and donwshifting is done simultaneously and completed before setting the car in the turn. Thus, "heel and toe" as your are using the right foot for two jobs at once, braking and matching engine speed to road speed for the gear selected.

As mentioned, advanced drivers will brake into the turn some, called "trail braking," which is a technique to get the front wheels to bite if needed, or allow the back end to rotate into the corner. By standing on the gas and turning out of the corner, the opposite effect takes over and straightens the car out. This is very tricky driving and I can tell you I'm no master at this in a 911.

911s are driven differently from one person to the next and are a differnent creature between the autocross course and a high speed track. Some of the manuvers I'm talking about are not for every situation. Braking in a straight line while downshifting getting ready to turn in probably never got anyone in trouble unless they just didn't start soon enough. If you get to the corner at the correct speed, have a smooth arch that brings the car down to the apex of the corner w/o corrections, you have a good chance of coming off the corner w/o any wiggles and at a higher speed. We all wish we were that good. (At least I do)

BTW, my description comes by the way of enduro kart racing where I had only 16 HP to get me around the track. Any 'un'smooth driving cost in speed big time. It was all about not "pinching" the kart. Keep the rolling resistance at a minimum to take advantage of available HP. But, I didn't have any of the idiosyncrcies of 911 handling (such as throttle lift oversteer).

A little bit to add to what Zeke has written about not upsetting the suspension.

People generally believe that the springs hold a car up which isn't very accurate. If you remove the springs from a car it won't fall through the ground and the front/rear weight distribution will be the same.

A better way of looking at it is: The springs hold the wheels down. As you shift the cars weight side to side and front to rear, look at which springs are compressed. The more you compress them the more force they can exert on the ground.
If you make slight acceleration changes in a corner you can easily see the car's front and rear rise and fall. This makes a huge difference in the cars ability to generate cornering force. If you don't have consistent cornering force you will never be able to go fast.

Wayne

Well said.

Beleive it or not, the NASCAR boys got the cornering thang down. Listen to them brake into the corner and roll into the throttle twice a lap all day every Sunday. They do smooth to save gas as well. Could get boring, but they've made a science out of it. And if they aren't on the ragged edge coming off the corner, then there's no marks on the wall. :D

heres what ya do, dont do it in your Pcar but something else, get into the corner hot and heavy, about 150 feet from the turn in point steer away from the corner, then back into it. as you steer back in punch the gas and yank on the e brake. as your rear end comes around go opposite lock on the steering and throttle steer the car through the corner. so much fun!!!

now now , if you enter a left hand turn, from the left side of the road... you will need to lower your entry speed to prevent going out...and that will affect your exit speed... positioning is definately a big part of mastering a turn...and so is braking late and precise... exiting fast is the goal, but the other parts are vital to achieve this, can't exit properly , if your entry was crap

AWD's suck on a track compared to a RWD just because throttle steering isn't as obvious with AWD