Setting up for a fast turn

[1982911sc]

Another post inspired me to post this. How do most of you guys set up for a 90 degree turn? I will tell you how I do it:

I still really haven't figured out the entire heel-toe thing. So bear with me outside of that. OK, usually I am going at a pretty good clip, when I gauge my distance to the turn I am coming in hot and then go to heavy, heavy brakes, slowing until I think it is near safe to take the turn (depending on conditions, elevation, surface etc). While I am on the brakes I am also on the clutch, as I near the apex I am into second and am off the clutch fast and on the gas heavy. Kind of slingshots me through the turn. Of course this is only for spirited driving!

I would say this is similar to my BMW however I think I use more of the 911s power to slow the car and fly through the turn, the brakes do most of the stopping, but when you pop into second the car hunkers down and is ready to just fly through the turn.

Thoughts? is this similar to other methods!

[bigchillcar]

i just don't think that any of the track guys are gonna have an opinion...
ryan

[ted]

It depends on that turns priority.
Is it a type 1 before a long straight.
A type 3 turn with several linked turns in a series.
Flat, on or off camber.
If it's in the middle of a field somewhere I'd check the track out for oak trees . Perhaps take a late apex to leave myself a safe margin on the track out.

[TimT]

Slow in fast out.....track newbies mantra

I take it your doing this stuff on the street?

Im glad there are a few miles between where you drive and I do

[Eric Coffey]

Originally posted by 1982911sc
While I am on the brakes I am also on the clutch, as I hit the apex I pop into second and am off the clutch fast and on the gas heavy...

Hmmm, you should really be on the clutch only long enough to execute a gear change. Also, try getting the car in the proper gear for the turn before the apex. Have (safe) fun!

[stefang]

As a general rule, rearend first tends to not be a good way to go through a corner. (though of course many 911s have).

Do yourself a favor, go to a DE, learn how to drive that thing before you go off the road. I'm amazed you haven't yet if you really go around corners the way you just described at any real speed.

You might find some advice here on what to do differently.

Stef

[porschenut]

Originally posted by Eric Coffey
Hmmm, you should really be on the clutch only long enough to execute a gear change. Also, try getting the car in the proper gear for the turn before the apex. Have (safe) fun!

Absolutely. I brake to the proper speed and downshift before I enter the turn, then accelerate all the way through it.

[ted]

as I reread your comments,,,
heavy heavy brakes, pop the clutch and heavy gas....
does not sound very smooth.
To maintain your tire's ulitmate grip while cornering at the limit you cannot pop the clutch, with a little instruction you might find you can improve you cornering speeds.
Read some books on performance driving, I did and I'll be happy to tell you a couple if you are intersted.

[Zeke]

As a novice, no braking or shifting is to be done while turning. All in a straight line approaching the corner. Trail braking comes with training and seat time. Not even Micheal Schmacher shifts while turning. Sounds like you've got a handle on the braking, but you need some work on the downshifting so you're in the correct gear by turn in.

I used to practice downshifting while driving city streets and suburban roads. The funny thing is, you don't shift that much at a track; you never slow down as much as you need to on public roads. Most tracks are set up for a fairly high average speed. Heel and toe is easier to do in 5th, 4th and 3rd than it is in the lower gears. Try it, you'll see.

[1982911sc]

Thanks all, Yes maybe my description was rough. Yes I am in the proper gear before I am into the turn (apex). I am not rearend first through the turn, it just kind of sucks down and more pushes the car through the turn. I have done some BMW autocrossing and actually did race shifter carts for a very short while. I consider myself to be a very safe driver, I won't curse myself by telling you how long it has been since I have had any tickets or accidents! Just having fun nothing real crazy! Nothing like I have tried on a track. Ted I would be interested in some books specific to Porsche Performance driving, what do you recommend?

[masraum]

There's only one book specific to Porsche Performance driving, and it's not bad. Porsche Performance Driving Handbook by Vic Elford.

Another great book on driving is Paul Frere's Sports Car and Competition Driving Handbook, then don't forget about Barber's book, Bondurants, Hank Watts - Secrets of Solo Racing, etc...

My guess from your description is that you are probably slowing down more than you need to for your corners, but then I'm no instructor, so I'll leave it to them to tell you. As already stated, slow in fast out. Sounds like you've got the basics down, slow down, turn, then gas.

[Eric Coffey]

Another must-read IMO is "Drive to Win" by Carroll Smith.

[ted]

It would be nice to have book on how to drive and set up a 911 for racing but I'm not aware of it. Most performance driving books will help you weather you race a 911 or a limo.
The books below are fantastic reference resources too. I have read them and still a month later I'll pick one up to reread a chapter or two.
1st book
Going Faster
Mastering the Art of race driving.
From the Skip Barber Racing School
By Carl Lopez
This book really felt like they were talking right at my level.

2nd book.
Drive to Win.
The essential guide to race driving.
By Carroll Smith.
Awesome book, a little more advanced than the one above.

A Twist of the Wrist.
The Motorcycle racers handbook.
Thumb through it at the book store.
The author has a unique writing style, might interest you.

I like the Hank Watts book's too though they are more entry level.
He does have some awesome track notes for some Nor Cal tracks.
One of Hank's books is on the GGR PCA site now.
http://pca-ggr.org/tthandbook/
Or here too.
http://pca-ggr.org/ttvenues.html

[89911]

Just remember the success of mastering a turn is not the set up or turn itself, its the exiting speed after leaving a turn. Do everything right and you'll see these speeds and rpm's climb.

[jluetjen]

As far as books specific to driving a 911 -- there's a reason that there is only one. To be honest, driving a 911 is not that different then driving any car where the engine is behind the driver. So all of the books writen towards single seat drivers apply pretty much equally to driving a 911. Driving a front engine car (like a Mustang or most BMW's) is a little bit different.

I'd also agree with the above list. A couple of books which are worth while but not mentioned...

The Technique of Motor Racing by Taruffi -- The ideas that he discussed 50+ years ago still apply today. Sure the brakes are better and the grip levels are higher, but smooth and sensitive remains the key.

The Racing Driver by Dennis Jenkinson -- Another oldie but goodie. Sterling Moss has always compared well with the greats such as Fangio, Stewart, Sienna and Schumacher. Jenks does a really good analysis of what made Moss so great.

Jackie Stewarts Principles of Performance Driving -- Jackie rates tops in my book for not only being incredible smooth; if you ever see a clip of him he just never seemed to be going that fast. The thing is that he was one of the first to actually describe how he did it.

Remember, you should practice being smooth everywhere. Practice being fast on the track.

[rennch]

Just go in really hot, turn in, and abruptly lift off the throttle. 911's just love that.



mto

[Mark sP]

Basically you should not be in a coasting state at all. The clutch is for shifting gear period. After setting up the balance of the car you should be steering with the throttle to maintain that balance through the turn, using the wheel to correct the car rather than steer the car. This applies to your BMW also.

[dotorg]

I found, early in my days of learning performance driving, I did the same sort of stuff the original poster mentioned, because I couldn't heel/toe and couldn't seem to downshift smoothly prior to a turn, so I'd tend to coast turns with the clutch in.

You learn very quickly that a) its slow and b) you're screwed, badly, if you need to get back on the power quickly because you start to oversteer.

[1982911sc]

I am not sure what is meant by "coasting" I would have to say I am doing anything but. Let me put it more simply, how about gas, brake, gas. I think coasting would be kind of doing nothing letting the car go on its own? I am way into gear before I even start my turn.....maybe I need to repost my original thougth more clearly? Actually I was hoping to read how others may approach a turn, however I have not had one real response only critiques.

[jpachard]

Originally posted by emptyo
Just go in really hot, turn in, and abruptly lift off the throttle. 911's just love that.



mto

Awesome!! Just remember, if you spin often enough, sooner or later you will hit the apex.

James