death of a 964...

[wastintime]

Hey everyone... well, from te subject you probably could tell that his was not a good post. Hopefully none of your guys are insurance adjusters and are going to use this post against me, but I'd kinda like some advice from some fellow porschephiles.

The last time I was at the track It was my first solo ever, and it was a lapping day, and it was like I was on fire... I dropped 5 seconds off my fastest time I was passing lotuses and ferraris, I was really feeling like a badass.

Yesterday was supposed to be the first day of my 7th track event, and nothing on the car had been changed except for a new racing seat and 5pt harnesses.... unfortunately my rear tires were kind of crappy and had too much tread and were getting way too hot too fast, we'd finally gotten them perfect at the lapping day, but for some stupid reason I let meyself be convinced to switch tires (lol, and yes I'm blaming this on the tires because if I blame myself anymore I'll kill myself).

Anyway, the first session yesterday went okay, I was going a little slow because it was the first session, but the car felt pretty good. The second session I stepped it up a little, but was still well under a fast pace, but coming around turn nine (at roebling road) I was doing about 80... I usually go through at 95 when the car did a little squiggle, at which point I decided I am not going to make it, and was going to just drive off since everyone tell you do not try to save it in nine. Unfortunately I didn't know to actively steer for the grass. I was afraid of doing anything to upset the car, so I tried to just hold the turn that was going to carry us into the grass, when boom, the car snatched aroud and hit the wall, at least it only hit once, most cars hit three times. When you watch the video, there's about 1 second between the wiggle and when it hits the wall, and what really pisses me off is you can see my hands in the vid, and I never tried to steer towards the apaex to recoer or anything... plus the tires gave like no warning leading up to this... most street tires will talk to you, but these never made a noise... So, yeah, lol, I'm blaming the tires... plus we never even got a single wheel off during this whole thing. so it's not like i dropped two and then tried to save it.


Anyway... ***** happens, no one was hurt thankfull, and believe it or not it really was a gentle hit. Still, the rear of the car is messed up.

We have a celette bench in our shop, and it's like $800 to rent the fixtures for a week, so straightening the frame might now be too bad, and heck, fiberglass body panels were coming soon anyway right?

The engine, I am very worried about, I was trying not to look at the damage, but another mechanic said he though the right side cylinder head had been ripped apart. Engine damage is probably the only thing that's going to make me give up on my car...


THen there's insurance... I've been told that my insurance company has added a clause in the last year that says they will not cover any sort of driver's ed... lol, and yet they give me insurance discounts for going to them. So... I don't know... a friend of ours who owns another shop here in charleston said one of his customers had a similar experience and he actually was a lawyer and got his insurance company to pay for his lambourghini that hit she same wall 3 times. I really hope I can do something becasue if not I'm carless at the moment and am really going to have to sell the car, or at least won't be able to fix it for a long long time. Which really hurts especially when I have done every bit of work on the car.

Then there's the whole self confidence thing... I really had, up until yesterday, considered myself to be a very good driver, and a very safe driver. I was adamant about not tailgating at driver's eds, and while this was going on, I was trying to remember everything about how to drive off of nine, and it's like the rear of the car was just having none of it... so I don't know... what two weeks ago was the most exciting thing in my life is starting to seem like a big waste of money and maybe I'm not really cut out for this...

Sigh... anyway, that's my story... no one make fun of me for atleast a couple of days, and then I'll probably be able to laugh along with you... any advice on the insurance angle or any angle would be really appreciated. Thanks guys.

Andrew

[masraum]

THat sucks, an expensize lesson. Someone recently posted that you shouldn't take anything to the track that you can't afford to leave there. Many of us do anyway. Don't let this stumble stop you. The whole point is that no matter how good a driver we think we are we still have tons to learn and need lots more experience. This just sets that into stone, you need more practice, not to give up now. What's that about getting back up on the horse after a fall?

Hopefully this won't work out as badly as you are thinking. Good luck and keep us updated. If you have to sell try to part out some of your upgrades (like the racing seat) that'll help you get the most out of it.

[makaio]

Man that sucks! Especially after all you have gone through with the car.

Hearing what happened to you and seeing first hand what has happened to others has me thinking about something other than a 911 for a track weapon. I would still want a Porsche though, just maybe a 944 or 914-4.

[wastintime]

Oh... I wouldn't give up on the 911... I think they're the ost fun cars in the world to go around a track in.... This is probably going to result in my 911 becoming a total track car, but I was really stupid I went out on tires that I didn't know, and I really think that caused everything... lol, of course ron zitza had to point out on the video where I could have saved it, but I don't think I could have reacted fast enough... I thought... I should have just headed for the "meadow" I'm standing by my statement that I didn't do anything wrong, but I didn't do the right thing that would have prevented this either.

I mean, I'm still really mad, and I don't know if I can afford to fix the car, and I don't know if I'm going to try to make an insurance claim or not, but going to the track is awesome and I wouldn't give up on it just because of my story... lol, I might not take an '04 911... well, then again take the '04 and keep the good 911s in nice shape ; )

I just need to get over this and decide that while the whole car is apart to really make it a beast of a track car.

[911ctS]

gosh thats terrible. my sympathy goes out to you and your car. its very hard to adjust to a track that has severe consenquences (walls) when your used to ones that have no walls and you can just spin off into the blue yander. Laguna would be a pretty good example of a very technical track with punishing walls. I hope everything works out well with your car, maybe this is time to convert it to total track beast? Please post some pics of the carnage and maybe the video you speak of. I would very much like to see what happened.

[wastintime]

I'll post some pics tomorrow, lol, but I don't know if I want the video to be made public especially since I've watched it enough times now that I know exactly where I should have corrected and saved the car, but we'll see.

For the most part roebling is a very forgiving track, that's the only wall on the whole track, and the rule usually is if you get two wheels off, just drive off, don't try to save it beause it'll throw you into the wall. Well, I never even got one wheel off, and I was trying to drive it off the track... so i don't know... I just need to stop thinking about it.

andrew

P.S. Thanks everybody for not going "well don't hit walls you idiot!"

[widebody911]

Don't beat yourself up over not correcting - people usually make things much worse by trying to be a hero and 'save it'.

[Beethoven]

Sorry to hear about this, and I can imagine the momentary loss of self-confidence that comes along with such a trauma. But you'll be the better for it in the end. I don't think anybody on this board would fault you for this--everybody knows it can happen (and has happened) to anybody.
It would be really great if could post the video--for other to learn and understand. And of course pictures of the car--perhaps it isn't as bad as all that.

[sammyg2]

There's an old saying: if you aren't willing to push it off a cliff, don't race it.
I know that offers no help at all but I feel for you. Too bad the car wasn't driveable to a place where you're insurance would cover it
I know one person who allegedly did just that.

[Schrup]

Andrew, I really feel for you. My track days will be starting in July, so I will have you in the back of my mind when I participate in my first DE. What kind of tires were you running? I hope you will post the video so I might learn from it.

[wastintime]

Paul,

I'm not trying to scare you off... i was running really *****ty tires, keep that in mind, and I have learned my lesson... I don't know how I got talked into switching tires, but that's gotta be what caused the car to get upset, and then my never having gotten in trouble on that turn before just didn't give me enough time to save it.

If anyone tells you that evenly worn street tires are the best to learn on... don't listen! Lol, if I had started with those I would have probably been okay, but I was already hitting 145mph going into turn 1 at roebling, and even though I thought I was going really slow, I was driving beyond my tires. Don't go to track tires right away either because they give you no warning before they break away (kinda like mine in the vid even though they are street tires)

Really, DEs are fun, and you learn a lot... I'm already planning on getting back into it as soon as I can


Okay... here's the vid... unfortunately you can't see my hands until I really try to get it off the track, but you can see the car gives a little wiggle and it throws me into an early apex, and from that moment on I'm trying to aim it at the grass, but it just won't go there. I was trying to be gentle and not upset the car, but I guess I should have just thrown it into a spin away from the wall... lessons learned



Anyway, here is what's left of my dignity.

The Crash!

[wastintime]

hmmm, that posted the wrong link, hang on

[wastintime]

ok, go here go here


then click "click here"

[sundaypunch]

Originally posted by sammyg2
There's an old saying: if you aren't willing to push it off a cliff, don't race it.
I know that offers no help at all but I feel for you. Too bad the car wasn't driveable to a place where you're insurance would cover it
I know one person who allegedly did just that.

Of course, aside from the moral implications, that would be a felony.

The first part of your statement hits it on the head. Unless you purchase DE insurance be prepared to pay if you screw up. I can't imagine approaching your State Farm or Allstate agent and expecting them to cover a DE accident.

Hopefully wastintime will find his car is fixable for a reasonable price.

[azasadny]

Posts like this are why I don't track my car....

[Beethoven]

I would not want to give up the opportunity to learn how to drive my car better, and I hope that's what I learn when I have my first DE event. Where else would you get an instructor to tell you how to approach a corner, when to brake, when to accellerate? I don't think you can learn that from reading books only. And these are skills usefull in everyday driving.
Now, going at 145mph into turn and lapping Ferraris is another matter altogether...

[Mike Kast]

I was told recently that I'm entirely uninsured for track incidents and that if my car was track prepped in anyway, rollbars or harnesses, insurance would probably not cover even on the street. I tried to get him to specify and couldn't really pin him down.
It wasn't something I was going to argue because it was not a threat but more of a professional advice thing.
It seems wrong to me but that is what I was told.

[aigel]

I have trouble downloading the vid. Server shows busy.

Sorry about the bad luck! Don't throw the 911 out just yet. And be happy that you are okay, that's all that counts. Metal is much easier to repair and replace than bone and organs.

I disagree on what you are saying on the tires. You don't want to be on street tires on a big track doing 145mph. I think your tires are partly responsible for your accident. That doesn't give you a pass, since you chose to put them on Let's just say that running on a big track with questionable street tires isn't good. What brand were they???

And yes, the stickies will give you time to handle a situation. I find that they "smear" before they break, the car gets light and you have time to react. With street tires you are a rallye driver before you know it... I hate street tires for any serious performance driving. They are like driving on ice.

There is only one three good ways to prepare for your big track driving: Autocross, autocross, autocross! That's where you hone your skill of saving the car and reacting correctly to an iffy situation. It scales to the large track, no problem. You can go beyond your limit safely at AX any time and hone your skill and automatic reaction to situations. There is no time to think, you have to react automatically. At the track you stay under your limit, or it is too late. Did you do much autocrossing before going to the big track?

I don't want to give the 'I know better' impression here, just try to point out what you can do to avoid such mishaps. I learnt most these things recently myself as I am just getting started on the big track. I also recommend that one goes to a track with no walls to hit, if you are new. And then, if there are walls, take it especially easy in turns that lead to them. The local club actually has a no-wall policy. No first time students at tracks with plenty of walls.

Also, try your local PCA for track driving events. Instruction is very focused on the P car, since you are usually paired with an instructor that has a similar car than you do. PCA is likely the best instruction you can find out there with folks that have done this for 20+ years.

Good Luck and stay safe!

George

[1980 911 sc]

I feel your pain, this winter I drove off the road in the snow in my 911. I was doin at most 25 MPH and was caught in a little snow storm on the eway home from a full day trip. Now I know i was stupid for driving in the snow, and I didnt go to the insurtance co till the autobody guy said it would be 4K (that I cant really afford). I felt it was my own stupid fault and I deserved it. I filed a claim as my wife demanded. I will never forget sitting in that office admitting I was dumb, a true life lesson. Anyway, they payed, and as of today my rates didnt even change.

I justified them paying the money quite easily. I pay them [ to much] money every year, and when I asked why it was sooo much to insure my car as a SECOND car they said, "well it IS a PORSCHE and we ussually dont insure high HP/weight ratio cars but as you have never had a accident or ticket we will put this through" liek I am gunna feel guilty about drivin my car how it is supposed to be driven....

know this, they rip you off fo insurance and I would read my policy carefully and if it seems clear file a claim, but be honest, worst they can do is refuse to pay if you are thinking of paying it out of pocket.

Oh, and when you fix it, make sure you upgrade the handling so you can got 100 in that turn, the ONLY way you can regain the confidence in your skills is by conquerign your fears..

my 2 cents!

[jyl]

Sorry to hear about your car. Hopefully it is repairable. Don't go looking for reasons to feel like a dummy, no doubt you made mistakes that you won't make again, but probably 90% of it was "***** happens".

I did a DE last year and had a blast. I was all set to do more. After thinking about it, I decided to spend this year doing AX, and not to return to the track until I had that AX experience, plus a lot of safety gear in the car (cage, seats, fire system, harnesses), and enough safety gear on me (head/neck restraint, driving suit). I also want to be in a financial position where I can total the car and not suffer much (beyond not having a Porsche anymore). My main concern is my own safety and my family responsibilities, the car is a secondary concern. So for 2004 I'm going to have a good time doing AX, trying to learn smoothness and to go beyond my limits to learn what to do when things go "oops".