Does Smoke Equal Fire???

[Westy]

Just curious. I heard a lot of you talk about smoke when you start up. I just test drove a 1981 SC Targa. It smoked for a few seconds when the guy started it. It ran for a while, I test drove it (felt real good), then parked it. After we talked for ten or fifteen minutes, he started it so he could pull it into his garage. It smoked again, but only for a second or two.

Is this pretty much the norm? Car has 123 K on it, but the top end was recently redone, and I saw the receipt for the work.

Thanx.

[svandamme]

the puff of smoke is common if the car sat still for a while.. but not 15 minutes..., it shouldn't smoke if you start it warm...at all...

[ubiquity0]

Was this today in the Bay Area? Its pretty damp- the couple seconds of smoke after restarting it could just be water vapor after it was sitting out a few minutes.

[aigel]

There is no vapor that can get in there that quickly. Think about it. Things are at 200+F, there is no way it can be vapor.

As Stijn says, they should only smoke after sitting for a longer period, e.g. overnight. If it smokes at startup after shutting it down for 15 minutes, I'd say RUN, don't walk, RUN from it!!!

George

[aigel]

Oh yeah, make sure you tell us who did the top end, so we can RUN from that shop too.

I am wondering if it was black smoke, not blue? Maybe fuel? Overly rich? Only if it was blue, not black/dark grey smoke, it is oil. Otherwise it is fuel.

George

[svandamme]

can't have water vapor in a hot exhaust, even after 15 minutes the temperature in the exhaust should still be plenty warm to keep the pipes dry, unless of cours you cold start the car , never have it warm , stop wait 15 minutes and then start it... even then i doubt there can be enough humidity to make a tail pipe puff vapour

[Westy]

It was blue on start up. I know that's the oil. It was black (acording to my wife) the second time. The car is running rich 'cause I can smell the fuel. The car was in the bay area, and it sits a lot 'cause he doesn't hardly drive it. Or so he says, but I believe him. He had to move some small stuff just to get it out of the garage.

I'm not quite ready to run just yet

[ubiquity0]

Now I get it- this is the care that won't pass smog right? Supposedly with the bad CAT?

[Westy]

You got it!!!! Confirmed bad cat.

[aigel]

Well, I said RUN before I thought about fuel smoke. So, yes, just don't run yet. Just pay much less.

The shot cat is likely a result from running ultra-rich. There must be something wrong with the fuel system. Buying a car that does not pass smog, has a shot cat and runs rich bears some risks. Make sure you pay an according price. The CIS is great when it works, and it is reliable, but when it breaks, it can be very expensive to fix. Since you are in CA, you can't just dump it and put carbs either.

Was the 02 sensor connected? It may be as easy as setting the idle mixture and installing a good 02 sensor.

It is mandatory that you find the reason why it runs rich before you put a new cat. The new cat won't live long if you go at it again with rich plumes of black smoke.

And the question remains: Where does the first set of smoke, which is BLUE, come from on a freshly redone top end? I think while normal on a high mileage engine, it shouldn't do that on a fresh top end, eh?

George

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Check the oil on the car. The owner might have it overfull or filled to the top of the dip stick. Who did the top end? The cat is easy to replace, but I would expect the bolts to be rusted. You can easily cut them off with a dremel and replace with new, you will need new anyway. Get the fuel mixture correct, and you just might have a jewel. But remember to pay only what it is worth minus all the repairs that will need to be done. Don't run yet, but have the sneakers ready. Don't fall in love just yet.

[aigel]

Excellent input David. I had not thought about the oil possibly being overfilled!

And one more thing: NEVER fall in love with a car. These cars are far from special in the SF bay and they all look the same. Don't settle for something that isn't a good deal!

George

[Westy]

All good info, so here goes. New top end, botom about 15 k ago. Beautiful paint. Pearl black and hardly a blem. I couldn't find rust, let alone a bubble. All new top, but needs one clip. Ouch, they are 'spensive. Fuchs, good rubber. All new leather interior. All new seals and rubber. 1st & 2nd and synchros done. A//c there, but leaks (my guess is the compressor) Oil temp gauge not working (very pricey). Lowered in Dublin. Torshion bars and bushings. Blaupunkt stereo, subs, tweets, amp. New battery, again nary a spec of rust. bra, car cover, tool kit, manuals. I think he's gonna break down and buy the cat (at least if he wants to sell it to me). If it passes smog, whatdoyathink?

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

George,

Not a problem, this is one of my issues.

Westy,

Oil temp guage could be that the sender is not connected or is faulty. Easy and cheap fix. Guage itself bad... A/C? That is 2 windows at 80 + MPH! Just joking, you can talk down the price a bit for that, but I don't miss mine a bit. All mine needs is two new fans to work. If it passes smog and you can identify that the smoke is from being too rich, then it is worth talking money. Did you get a PPI? The owner could pay to have the fuel mixture adjusted at the same time and remove any doubt from your mind. Don't run based on this, just be aware of what is up.

New paint? Is the car's body clean? If so, get a magnet and a piece of felt, put the felt on the car and the magnet on the felt. Run this over the body, especially where you would find rust. Try this on your own vehicle. You will "feel" if there is any bondo. If you find this, run and don't look back!

Do you have any other prospects?

[Westy]

Ya know,,,I had my magnet and cheese cloth, and left them at home. As far the PPI (and correct me if I'm wrong, but that IS pre-purchase inspection, right?), I will have it done at German Auto Service in Alameda. They've been there a very long time. I will pay for that AND the adjustment to the CIS, if necessary. If the CIS is kaput, then I don't plan on spending the money to have a new one. I'll move on. But I'm telling you, I've been wrenching on American V-8's for years, and I don't remember one smelling this rich at idle. Something is wrong, and I don't have th eknowledge on this system to know if it's minor or major. Why didn't Porsche put a 289CI in their cars. I would be right at home!!!!!!

Actually, I was thinking about flying out to Minnesota and look at Schuey's car, but the guy is a total flake. Based on his ability to deal with people on Pelican, I don't think I care to do business with him.

Other than that, I have no other other prospects at the moment. And the cars on Traderonline all seem to have issues. This guy in Alameda has paid a lot of moola to keep his car in really nice condition, but then, I didn't see a large toolbox, a medium toolbox. a SMALL toolbox, or even a screwdriver in his garage. I don't think he turns at all, so naturally all of his work has to be done in a shop where they charge top hourly rates. He does, however, appear to be very honest. He was a refreshing surprise, but it might just be he doesn't know if something is wrong with the car.

It sure is purdy!!!!

[aigel]

Westy:

Besides stemming from the V8 crowd you must also be from the midwest or some other rustbelt place: These cars aren't supposed to rust, especially NEVER in CA. They have a galvanized body starting in 76, if I remember right, and they don't have body seams like a dodge van either. The only thing you may find is some bubbling under the front 'smile' where there is an ungalvanized piece hidden. So, while we all are happy that the car is rust free, it isn't anything special. Don't fall in love, remember!

The car won't pass smog if it runs this rich, even with a good cat installed. I'd just tell the guy you buy it if he fixes the smog and the rather obvious rich-run-problem which goes hand in hand.

A/C is marginal on these cars, even when it works. I think you can beef it up with aftermarket parts if needed. I'd ditch it, unless you are travelling the central valley frequently. It's a targa! Take the top off...

If it doesn't work out, just swap in a 289. It will be much faster down the straights.

George

[vash]

westy, sounds like a nice car. the non passing smog thing is scary, but i just loaned a brokeass friend some money to install a cat on a miata that we dropped a japan motor in. the numbers were off the charts when he failed. it was like 3 crappy cars spewing forth filth. well one new cat installed, and the thing was so damn clean running even i was suprised. needlesstosay, he passed with flying colors. the oil temp thing is cheap. there is a bountiful supply of old gauges at a local bayarea porsche salvage yard for $55. and i have a old AC compressor you can have for free, but i dont no the condition or the possibility of testing? like i told you in PM, there is a strange amount of SC going for sale in the bay area. my friend looked at 3 the past week. one 81 today.

[aigel]

I think the 911s are coming out the woodwork because people waited for spring to sell them. Also, I do not think the economy is even close to good enough for everyone to hold on to them. Especially the mechanical illiterates have to sell them because upkeep is killing them financially.

George

[vash]

wish i had some money to burn. look at this part of the bay area inventory! i dont know the newer models, but this FEELS like a decent deal:
http://www.craigslist.org/eby/car/29069098.html

[Westy]

aigel

I actually grew up in Alameda and Oakland. Ahhhh waking in the morning to see Sutro Tower. Well, that is unless the fog was rolling in and making everything wet and RUSTY. But then, I didn't need a/c back then either. Now I'm getting older and crankier, and our summers up here are miserable. It would be a shame if I didn't drive my car in the winter cause it's always wet and in the summer because it's too hot. I'm already budgeting for the rotary compressor and the oversized condenser,,,especially if I get this car and it's turn key out of the driveway.

Groesbeck

Thanx for the info,,,,but I'm still trying to figure your moniker out!!!

Unfixed

Where are all the Porsche salvage yards? Is All Foreign still in Bizerkley?

PS. I sent you a PM